Monday Mouse Watch : Busting through the berm

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:34:30 GMT

As a stockholder and a Disney dweeb, I'm not all that thrilled by the prospect of Disney trying to expand its footprint outside of Anaheim and Orlando. Jim's already mentioned Disney's failures at trying to expand the Disney park & resort footprint outside their home bases; another couple of projects that weren't quite failures but weren't the resounding successes compared to their theme-park connected brethren were the DVC resorts at Hilton Head and Vero Beach. My understanding was that the properties took so long to sell out that Disney gave up on a prime beachfront location in California because they couldn't see the point of trying to get people to buy in to a location that wasn't physically connected to a theme park.

While a themed Disney resort with a mini-park may sound good on paper, I think the reality would be that folks aren't gonna want to pay top dollar (and with Disney you KNOW it'll be top dollar) for the privilege of staying in a Disney resort and visiting a waterpark in a city where there's no actual Disney theme park and there are many other lodging options available. Maybe Rasulo thinks that Adventures by Disney could help fill the rooms, but the price point of an ABD vacation isn't going to bring in the number of guests that'll keep a hotel like this at or near full occupancy most of the year, either.

Let's be honest here: Would you spend $300 or more a night to stay at the Grand Floridian or the Grand Californian if there weren't Disney theme parks a short distance away? I have a feeling that most families that aren't hard-core Dinsey fans will answer "no".

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:46:59 GMT

They should build Typhoon Lagoons/Blizzard Beaches....or newly themed Disney water parks. Put em in the mid west states where it gets hotter than hell....the weekdays will see good business.

Given the choice, I would take a Disney water park over Wet N Wild any day! A pirates themed water park would make me happy...whether it was at DL/WDW or right down my street...

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 03:09:22 GMT

Jay Rasulo can't even keep the Disney Theme Parks in the U.S. operating flawlessly. That should be Priority Number One.

Even as Disney outsources jobs, cuts back on maintenance, closes entire attractions AND continues jacking up prices, it wants to ONCE AGAIN try its hand at a business venture that, Jim rightly points out, has been an abject failure every single time it has been tried. Wait a minute ... there has been one major success: It was called The Disney Store, but Consumer Products "chairman" Andy Mooney and the Disney execs (including Iger) figured they'd rather take the money and run than keep investing in it. Not surprisingly, once a little TLC was applied, new owner Children's Place saw a marked increase in traffic and sales.

Stick to your knitting, Mr. Rasulo. If you can truly make the current parks shine once again in the eyes of their harshest critics, then maybe it would make sense to try to apply the Disney touch elsewhere.

If your division is so flush with cash it can be spending millions already on salaries, concept art and development plans, maybe it can funnel some of those bucks back into the problems your parks in California and Florida are facing.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 06:35:32 GMT

Disney is already at risk of oversaturation. Or maybe Disney actually reaches oversaturation every few years. The company is forced to retrench, experiences new succcess/attention, and then finds itself in the same position.

I think these beyond-the-berm attractions could succeed and serve as really great guest experiences, but to do this the Mouse needs to rethink the Disney experience. If this is another excuse for more mouse ear-shaped buildings and cadillac-pricing, then what differentiates this experience from Anaheim or Orlando?

Disney needs to do something bold if they are going to proceed with this kind of gamble. Simply becoming the next hotel/indoor water park on the block is only going to cheapen Disney's pedigree.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:38:04 GMT

Unless they build a new theme park somewhere else in the country, I don't think that a new hotel or sports complex would bring in the money they're looking for. somepirateguy's idea of a Disney water park in the middle of the country may work...but, like he said, the weekends would be packed. And, I'm sure, summer vacations. If you look at Typhon Lagoon & Blizzard Beach, they're only closed a few days a year, when the Florida weather gets just a little too cold. Versus a water park in the midwest- where it gets really cold and snows. It might take a while to make back the construction costs, unless they make super money when it first opens.

I think that a Disney retail complex would be the best bet. But, as Epcot82 pointed out, Disney let go of the Disney Store. I live in Orlando now, but, growing up, going to the Disney Store was almost like going to a Disney park, in the sense that I got a taste of Disney away from home. I was upset when the Children's Place first acquired the Disney Store, but I think that they're doing a great job. If Disney built a Downtown Disney-like complex, with multiple Disney stores (such as The World of Disney, Once Upon a Toy, etc.), then that may bring in some good money. Just don't build it too close to an existing mall...

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:16:22 GMT

Disney could have an impact if the built the "indoor water park/hotel" combination. I have frequented Great Wolf Lodge in the Midwest several times, and it is a great family venue. They try to get the themeing, and it's close, but not quite there.

Considering that this place already charges $249/night...minimum 2 night stay... and is almost always packed, Disney could charge a premium over that to have character interactions and other "Disney-style" entertainment/activities on the premises.

Every time we vist GWL, we always think about how the place coule be improved had it been "Disneyfied".

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 10:34:18 GMT

I totally agree with pschnebs. The only reason Disney resorts can command the nightly rates they can command is because of their proximity to their theme parks (location, location, location).

But if you compare even the high end of Disney resorts with true high-end hotels in major cities, it's not even close. The rooms are much smaller, the service isn't as good, the amenities are weak ... has anyone EVER stayed at any other high-end hotel that had the nerve to charge $10 a day for a rat-ass slow 'Net connection???

No, gone are the days when Disney was any kind of leader in the hospitality industry. Which, strangely enough, Disney themselves seems to have acknowledged with all their outsourcing and bringing in Four Seasons ... so why do they suddenly think their brand is going to command high dollars in Chicago in December??

They MIGHT be able to pull off a Disney themed waterpark somewhere ... but they'd do well to keep the hotel part out of it.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:18:56 GMT

I think a waterpark / Downtown Disney would do well in Texas as it can get hot and doesn't get cold like in the midwest. I don't know about a hotel though as it would probably be too expensive for families unless there was a themepark to draw families for multiple days.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:18:26 GMT

There's a Six Flags-brandedresort hotel in upstate New York with an indoor water park. Definitely a good bit more downscale than what Rasulo's currently describing, but still a similar concept. I wonder how they're doing, and hope Disney's tracking this.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:46:21 GMT

I'd rather see the millions of dollars for these proposed concepts being used to fill the pockets of the cast members - the people in the parks that make the "magic" happen. While a hotel or restaurant chain can be appealing, return business isn't going to happen if the employees don't live up to the "magic" of the name. What about using all of that money to reburbish and - gasp! - open the Wonders of Life Pavillion?

I don't think opening new hotels will make the public any less blind to problems that currently exist inside the parks. Putting out something new across the country won't make people forget about Walt Disney World and Disneyland; it will onlt distract them temporarily. I feel the same applies to the new Four Seasons Resort being built on property - why show people that the company isn't confident enough in its own name to outsource hotels? That, I feel, is just admitting defeat.

PS. I would love if Club Disney was still around - I'd take my daughter in an instant! Though I live an hour from Six Flags' main property, Great Adventure, I could never trust them with my child.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:28:47 GMT

aeva said:

"I'd rather see the millions of dollars for these proposed concepts being used to fill the pockets of the cast members - the people in the parks that make the "magic" happen. While a hotel or restaurant chain can be appealing, return business isn't going to happen if the employees don't live up to the "magic" of the name. What about using all of that money to reburbish and - gasp! - open the Wonders of Life Pavillion?

PS. I would love if Club Disney was still around - I'd take my daughter in an instant! Though I live an hour from Six Flags' main property, Great Adventure, I could never trust them with my child."

I totally agree. I felt the same way when they started outsourcing guest service positions. It wasn't that long ago that Disney used to hold seminars for other companies, teaching them how to service customers "the Disney way." Now, they've basically given up and admitted they can't do it anymore. I think that's SAD.

And I agree with you both about Club Disney and Six Flags Great Adventure ... we must live near each other, because I'm about an hour from there too and man is that place SCARY!

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:29:15 GMT

One word .... VEGAS !!!

I know there are alot of people who think this is a bad idea. But what Vegas needs is a larger family oriented destination. There are people here with money... it's HOT here... so a water park/shopping complex would be great. I remember the Disney Gallarie at the Fashion Show Mall and how disapointed I was to see it go. I just dont like buying collectables thru the mail or internet.

The hotel thing may be less of a good idea. But again... people come to vegas with money. Gives the kids a place to stay while the parrents move thru the strip. Plus... with a large showroom all their own... they could have a place to host musicals and such.

Forget the gaming side of Vegas. Water parks, shopping, and the big stage shows. Perfect.

Also.... why not build a place and have one of the big E ticket attractions.

Imagine a large scale Disney resort somewhere in Vegas.... water parks, shopping, Mary Poppins headlining the showroom... and a fully working Pirates of the Carribean ride underneath it all. In fact..... build the water park in the POTC ride. It would be amazing. I dont think anyone would complain about no slot machines. But if they did.... build a "Touchstone" casino next door.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 14:55:46 GMT

Wow! I grew in Denver and used to go to Celebrity all the time. I had no clue that it was owned by Walt or had anything to do with the Walt Disney Company.. I would have never guessed that one!

I am mixed about the possible expansion. I was thrilled with the whole DisneyQuest idea years ago.. that is until I actually visited the Chicago one while on a business trip and felt so "nickel and dimed" to death with all their "hidden fees" that I vowed never to return. I remember going in with that "magic Disney feeling" that I get when going to the theme parks, and then coming out disappointed and feeling ripped off. It just wasn't a good show for Disney. They just couldn't keep the magic that far away from their core. I'd agree with others.. return the existing theme parks to their earlier glory, and THEN.. MAYBE... start to branch out.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:24:18 GMT

I remember in history class when we were learning about the Roman Empire. And someone asked the teacher "WHy it fell?" and the teacher respoded with..."WHy did it fall? the better quesiton is...how did it last so long."

This.

This is what is going on with Disney......they are too damn big !

By the way...did anybody try the food at Mickey's Kitchen? I heard that it was all "helath" food

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:00:00 GMT

I agree with Instidude. Great Wolf does a good business. If Disney were to borrow the concept of family friendly resorts and put them in family friendly destinations (NO Vegas is NOT family or Disney friendly AT ALL) like the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Yellowstone, Wash DC, etc they could make a go at it.

For anyone who has travelled with kids, the will understand that most hotel chains don't cater (nor even service) families. Most hotel rooms have two beds and you can get a roll away. At Great Wolf, they have rooms that sleep up to 8 people with a kid friendly atmosphere. Disney could do this better.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:06:03 GMT

Yes indeedy Texas is where I was thinking in regards to water parks. Stays warm the majoirty of the year in central Texas and there is virtually no competition. As far as hotels there is a giant Gaylord hotel in central Texas which is pretty pricey and seems to be pretty busy; its possible that Disney themed hotels could work outside of the parks in certain locations.

As others mentioned though, I would prefer the existing Dsiney sites, get the TLC before expanding the empire.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:33:16 GMT

Vegas tried the "family friendly" thing ten years ago and it flopped dismally. The bottom line was people who were in town for a week of gambling and hedonistic decadence didn't want to be surrounded by a bunch of families.

Plus, it's not exactly conducive to the family environment when you can't walk down the street without pictures of naked ladies being crammed in your hand.

Disney in Vegas would be a disaster of epic proportions.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:25:20 GMT

Aren't the cruise ships an example of busting through the berm that is working?

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:38:09 GMT

"If you look at Typhon Lagoon & Blizzard Beach, they're only closed a few days a year, when the Florida weather gets just a little too cold."

Not exactly, both water parks are closed for 3 months every year for annual refurbishment. Make those three months December-February and you easily avoid winter's effect.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:17:11 GMT

Hey . . . has anyone heard anything about the rumors of Disney doing some development around Niagara Falls? I've heard some whispers of them doing something there.

Any thoughts?

Rich

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:23:55 GMT

Vegas would be a terrible idea. Companies already tried to do "family" themed things there, and they flopped dismally. Not to mention that Disney would take some major heat for any project they put in Sin City.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:10:57 GMT

I like the idea of Disney taking the magic past the berm. I actually wrote an article about this very thing at www.amateurimagineer.com back on march 2nd. This is the first semi-official thing I have heard about an indoor water park. I hope they can get past the blue sky phase and start implementing these ideas around the country.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:20:07 GMT

Water Parks have become a big business in the mid-west. A huge one, the Water Park of America, just opened in Minnesota. Its indoor, so its open year round.

Oh, and I thought they already tried the family-oriented Vegas in the 80s and 90s and it didn't work? I say keep families w/ kids out of Vegas. Kids don't need to see the stuff that goes on there. Its the perfect example of how you don't always need to market your brand to every age group.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:22:46 GMT

Interesting, a waterpark and hotel complex was announced this past week.

To be built in Mesa, Arizona(Phoenix).

"Which would then be built in a U.S. city that is already a major tourist destination for families) which would have an indoor water park attached to it."

I would say the Phoenix area qualifies as a major tourist destination.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:25:48 GMT

One model that keeps popping to mind as I hear about Disney's out-of-berm plans is the West Edmonton Mall/Mall of America model. West Edmonton Mall (I'll go with the one closer to me, that I actually know) is basically a lavish shopping mall with a hotel, waterpark, minigolf and an amusement park. The amusement park, formerly called "Fantasyland" before Disney sued them, has pretty much your usual rollercoasters, haunted houses, laser tag, assorted spinny rides and whatnot. The mall also used to have a submarine ride and still has the live seal show and aquarium associated with it. The mall also has themed avenues such as the "Bourbon Street" New orleans-themed restaurant and nightlife area, the "Chinatown" area (that is pretty much just like a downtown Chinatown, only cleaner) and the "Europa Boulevard" Europe-themed area of cafes and fashion shoppes.

So if you want an indoor tourist attraction, that wouldn't be a bad model. You have the hotel and the Pirates of the Caribbean waterpark. The amusement park could have scaled down, "franchised" or imported theme park rides: Mad Tea Party, Dumbo, Astro-Orbiter, a miniature train, a walk-through Haunted Mansion, a full-scale Buzz Lightyear's Astro-Blasters, a Space Mountain-theme indoor coaster, the Country Bear or Enchanted Tiki Room shows, Mickey's house, import the dry-for-wet 20,000 Leagues ride, and so on. There could also be a DisneyQuest and a World of Disney store.

Then out in the mall itself, have it themed after the different lands or some some such thing. Have a Tomorrowland avenue full of trendy fashion stores, executive toy stores, anime, etc. Put all the little housewifely bric-a-brac stores along Main St. along with the full size, honest-to-goodness Main St. Cinema showing new releases (also good for expensive Disney city-premieres). Put the restaurants and entertainment in New Orleans Square. Maybe have an indoor aquarium in Adventureland along with the exotica stores (eXotica, not eRotica!).

On and on it goes... It could bring out the Disney brand with an amusement park, waterpark and hotel complex - all indoors - while potentially profitting off of the rents and shopping brought in by the themed mall.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:40:50 GMT

To those who say that Vegas isn't family friendly. ... You are right.

Tourists in Vegas are here for only three things... Gambling, Shopping, and showroom entertainment.

But....

Vegas is the fastest growing comunity in America. There are 2 million people living here... and hundreds of thousands of families here with nothing to do.

Don't assume that everyone in Vegas has the means, or the funds to drive 4 hours south to experience Disney.

There are no one day field trips to Disneyland, Khotts, or Six Flags for our kids here.

And its a shame.

There are no spontanious saturdays at disneyland here without having to plan for hotel rooms or the cost of gas.

All of this is a shame.

You build Disney on the outskirts... like out by the Raceway or the lake... and its not "dirty" vagas at all.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:32:28 GMT

I personally like the various Disney stores that I've visited and would like to see more of them. I would alos personally like to see a Disney park in Northern California but I'm not sure if that makes much business sense. I think it may make more sense for Disney to build on land that it already owns. Example, I really do like DCA in Anaheim and I think that park can become truly great with continued updates and themeing. They have a lot of room to expand on property so why build elsewhere. The same goes for Orlando. I must admit that I've never been to WDW but as a Disney stockholder, I think it makes more business sense to make improvements to the existing parks.

Also as far as building other parks, Disney knows how much of a paing that can be. Plus there is no guarantee of sucsess. Plus Six Flags is all over the place and look at the problems that company has had.

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:50:40 GMT

Anyone remember the Disney Fair?

re: Monday MouseWatch : Busting through the berm

Jim Hill — Wed, 14 Mar 2007 14:13:54 GMT

>>Yes indeedy Texas is where I was thinking in regards to water parks. Stays warm the majoirty of the year in central Texas and there is virtually no competition.<<

Except school.