These changes are absolutely ridiculous, and Disney had to know something like this would happen. Never try to charge people for something they had previously perceived as free. The whole point of the DDP was, in addition to saving money and keeping guests on property, making dining easy. This had made it anything but.

This was a big mistake ... corporate would have done much better to increase the price and continue to operate the program as it had successfully been doing ...

I suspect many guests feel like they open up their wallets or pull out a credit card enough times during a stay at the WDW Resort ... and now -- especially if they've taken advantage of this is the past -- they're rightfully upset by a change that they likely weren't told about when they booked their vacations.

What's next? Charging full admission each and every day at every park or bringing back ticket books that limit guests to 11 to 15 attractions without additional payments?

I don't find any of this surprising.  Big corporations are always looking at the bottom line.  I think corporate would expect such complaints at first, but as time goes on and people continue to buy the dining plan, this will just become another faded memory for them and they will continue to rake in the customers.

Disney could raise it to 45-50 dollars and have people still paying for it... they should raise the prices...  , bring back at the very least the gratituity.. and the appetizer but on the other hand understanding the customer maybe they dont feel the server is worth the 20 percent maybe they had a bad experience no one should be forced to pay that specific percent if it wasnt a good experience

It amazes me that this is what is posted on the WDW site as of this morning.

"From savory snacks and quick meals, to Disney Signature restaurants and our famous Character Dining, experience the freedom of choosing from over 100 select restaurants throughout Walt Disney World® Resort to fit your family's ever-changing tastes during your vacation. Best of all, enjoy the convenience and peace of mind in knowing that most of your meals are paid for in advance, including gratuities where applicable."

Disney should have done a better job of advertising the changes to the guests. Most of the guests are not Disney fanatics, I had to really search for the above quote on their website. My wife and I knew about this 6 months ago. (Only because we eat sleep and breathe all things Disney) Sad to say but you could see this coming. I feel so bad for the servers I hope they don't start to treat the people with the dinning plans a little differently thinking they might not be compensated for their hard work.

There's no way Disney Dining can be surprised by these changes.  People have been complaining about the upcoming changes for MONTHS!  So there's no sympathy for the mouse on this one, now that the implementation date is here.

I understand the business side of it, but I think the right thing to do would be to:

* keep the plan truly "prepaid" - you paid in advance, you don't have to pay more for the tip at the end of the meal - keep tips included in the price of the plan

* make it either "appetizer" or "dessert" included - not both.  The plan included way too much food before, and too much was wasted.

* raise the price as necessary to make it work for all concerned parties long term.

I loved the old dining plan as much as anybody, but the restaurants have been way too impacted by the DDP and it needed to change.  But don't be stupid about it!

Sue in Texas

Quite honestly I don't believe you could raise the price and not have people complain.  It's what they do.  Raise the price, they will complain.  Change anything they will complain.  If the food service side was not making money then changes would have to happen and fast.  There was just too much food included and folks ordered because they could and wasted a lot of food.  Again everyone did it to themselves on this one.

Yes, they should have communicated it properly and grandfathered folks who already booked making for a smooth transition.  I agree with SueinTX.  This was a no brainer and they were stupid about it.

As a local, I hate the DDP since it occupies every seat so you can never call up in the same week and expect to get in.  As a local we actually don't eat at the table restaurants since we can never get in or plan our day accordingly and eat off property for less.

This has been a foregone conclusion on the web since they announced the changes.  And you notice what is riling folks the MOST.  The TIP being removed.  Apparently that was removed due to a UNION demand.  So now the union can deal with it's members being furious with not getting ANY tip. Nice going union!

And what about the appetizer? Are people ordering it because they assume it's part of the plan and then getting annoyed when they get presented a bill?

Dining has done a terrible job of informing folks.  And those of us who do know are avoiding the new plan.  So this whole thing is going to blow up in their faces.

I agree that that they could have just raised the price. It would still be a decent deal, and frankly, my favorite part was not having to think about the price of what I ordered, not have to worry about the tip, and just the overall convenience.  Which has now been reduced.

While some people would have been furious in a raise in the price, at least it would not have been taken out on the restaurant staff in the same fashion; if they raised the price, people would have known about it LONG before they set foot in the restaurant and agreed to it with full knowledge.  I've used the dining plan several times and unless Disney put a huge neon flashing sign on its site or a cast member told me of the changes when I booked my trip, I too would have figured it was the same problem.  I would not have noted the dollar difference to set off any red flags, that is for sure.

I can also say I would have VERY happily paid $45 or $50 a person for the plan if it kept the appetizer and gratuity, especially if it brought back the quality that we enjoyed when it was Magical Wishes, for example.  I was getting quite tired of shaking my head that the Coral Reef is down to only four very cheaply made and generic seafood dishes . . . at a seafood restauraunt.  Yes, we were making out like bandits at times at the corporation's expense based on the menu prices (though obviously not on the raw cost of the food), and it had to change.   But they could have thought about this much more.

What I don't understand is why the servers didn't speak up in opposition to losing the gratuity.  I know that a LOT of people on the Dining Plan tipped their server over and above the included gratuity, either because their server did an excellent job or simply because they didn't even realize the gratuity was included.  

Removing the tip was a union demand?  What's the source for that statement?  That's the first I've heard of it.  Somehow that doesn't sound right....

In any event, I agree with the previous poster who suggested including appetizer or dessert, but not both.  Both was way too much food.  As far as tip:  I always tipped extra anyway (if the service warranted it), and I'm of mixed mind about including it or not.  There's the one school of thought that says that, since the tip was automatically included, service would decline -- why should the server provide good service when they're going to get a tip, good or not?  For myself, I never saw that to be the case (except for one instance, but that was certainly the exception).  But then the other school of thought says that if the plan is meant to be all-inclusive, it should include everything.  

In advance of this change there was a lot of speculation that servers would end up getting stiffed, and I guess that speculation has now turned into reality.  For myself, I don't really mind either way -- in some ways I like being in control of how much tip my server gets.  Perhaps there could be a choice there as well:  a basic dining plan that does not include tip, and a higher level one that does.  The dining plan already does have tiers, so perhaps the tip/no tip option could be rolled into that?

I have to side with Disney on this one - the current Disney Dining Plan (DDP) fills up restaurants to capacity on just about every night, they don't need to continue losing money to convince folks to sign up for this deal (on a cynical note, the usual Disney strategy of "charging what the market will bear" works here too.)

Destino's assertion that the unions complained makes sense too.  My guess is the old "tip included" DDP broke down daily costs for each meal segment, and food services were reimbursed a set value for each meal voucher used.  It could be someting like $1 for each snack, $8 for counter service and $30 for table service meal (which would further break down to $26 for the meal, $4 for a 15% tip).  So if folks went to a higher end restaurant and ordered $40 - $50 food, their server would end up with a set tip of about $4 --possibly 10% or less (if my assumptions are near correct).  Yes, these are guesses - but I just can't see Disney stating 'this is an expensive restaurant, we'll take lower meal costs so the servers can earn closer to their normal tip wages'.  The servers (and by direct association, their unions) would be surely be upset about an arrangement with fixed and/or discounted tips.

For Disney to adjust prices to address tipping inequity and include this in the base cost, they'd need to figure out an average check cost and assume some level of service (15%? 18%? 20%?).  The downside is that folks at less expensive restaurants are now subsidizing checks at the higher cost restaurants, and great servers continue to receive the same tip as crappy servers.

The fairest solution is what Disney has done - step away from the tipping situation and return it to the guests.  If you eat at a more expensive restaurant, your overall dining costs will go up so the server isn't getting stiffed by a fixed DDP reimbursement.  If you get lousy service, your DDP costs won't force you to pay a new preset rate - you can tip what you feel is fair, same as any non-WDW restaurant.

I have to say, I just took a short 4 day trip to the World and didn't opt for the dining plan this time and we didn't miss it. We ate less because we didn't feel we had to use our credits. I can't tell you how many carrot cakes I had in our Port Orleans fridge the last time we were there on the dining plan, most of which got thrown out. We spent less time eating and more time enjoying the holiday decorations, which is why we went in the first place. We also felt like we weren't so scheduled, because we weren't constantly worried about the next meal. If we weren't so hungry we ate light and didn't worry that we were wasting our credits.

I love all the dining choices down there and many of the restaurants are my favorite anywhere, but the dining plan is ruining the dining experience at WDW. 2 months in advance and I can't get a reservation, just about anywhere on property? I'd rather pay full price and relax.

IIRC, the "union made us do this" excuse had more to do with the mandatory tip being added to the Disney Dining Experience, not the removal of the tip from the DDP.  And frankly, I do consider it an excuse - the WDW execs didn't eliminate the included tips to placate servers who felt they weren't getting enough money, they did it to increase the profit margin on the DDP.

If they really wanted to save money, in addition to eliminating the appetizer they should have eliminated the desserts at the theme park counter service restaurants. Instead, someone came up with the brilliant idea of serving pre-packaged desserts made by an outside vendor, which are so awful that my fiancee and I stopped ordering desserts at those restaurants.  Tensik's suggestion of a choice between an appetizer or a dessert on the DDP would have been a good solution, too.

This sounds like a typical case of vacationers acting like gigantic BLEEPS because, what the hey, I'm on vacation I can do WHATEVER I WANT. People are surprised that there has been a change to a Disney plan? What planet have they been living on?? They change ticket prices several times a year. If this is someone who has used the plan before than I assume they at least have some knowledge of how the parks work. It is up to you, Mr. John Q. Traveler, do find out what changes have been made since your last visit. There are plenty of online sources (this one included) that can provide you with up to the second information. This price still sounds ridiculously cheap, and now I understand why that I, as a local, have such a hard time getting into the top eateries, even during non-peak times. If someone has to tack on another $15 bucks they are still coming out way, way ahead had they paid cash for all the meals. It's to the point where you can't offer any good deals to a tourist because as soon as that deal expires they are going go crazy.

I wish Disney would have killed the plan altogether.  The overall variety of the food at the parks have definitely been reduced since dining was started.

This was a BIG mis-step for Disney! I agree with SueinTX, allow the guest to choose appetizer or dessert, put the tip back in, and raise the price if necessary. But, taking out the tip part, makes the plan annoyingly inconvenient. We used DDP many times before, and having the meals and gartuity all included was a major convenience. We ate what we want, didn't have to worry about price or gartuity and enjoyed it.

With this new change, I'm not sure if it's worth the effort any more.

I hate to say it, but I would be okay with paying a dollar or two more and changing it to allow the appetizer or dessert option plus gratuity.

Hopefully, they'll do the right thing and fix this.

I wonder how many complainers are actually getting anything back? Probably not very many, which means Disney will win anyway.

Someone needs to get fired at Disney.  To have a "PrePay" all your meals concept, and then make you pay more at the eatery is absurd.  I agree with others who suggest to simply raise the price of the plan to cover the gratuity, and eliminate the appetizer and/or dessert.  

Until that change is made, WARN PEOPLE over the phone when they are booking it.  That way the castmember on the phone might get a little flack, but at least the guests won't "make a scene" in a restaurant, and have harsh feelings during what is supposed to be a happy time. BTW, when you book with Disney, they ask you if you've stayed with them before, so they KNOW you if you've been on the Dining Plan.  Why wouldn't they tell you right then that the plan you've been on and what you are expecting, has been changed?

Whoa. Wait a minute. People are complaining because they have to tip their servers? That's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. I agree with most statements that Disney should've raised the price of the Dining Plan to cover gratuity, but to have these idiotic tourists getting upset because they have to tip for service? Obviously they've never worked a service job. Even if you have the Dining Plan, you should leave some cash behind.

I can tell you that when I called to book my May trip, I asked for the DPP and they didn't mention anything to me at all about any changes. And this was DVC Member Services I was dealing with, so they know I've been before and used the old plan.

As usual, Disney has ideas that are okay, but they consistently fall on their faces in the execution. They've had misstep after misstep after misstep lately and it's almost all due to horrid communication. I mean look at the uproar they created a few months ago when they announced the changes to the DDE. They completely blew that.

I agree with both sides of this argument ... OBVIOUSLY the demand is there for this program, so I'm completely fine with them raising the prices. A lot. I would have paid double for this right out of the gate and still used it every single time, so #1 they CLEARLY picked the wrong price point to start with. HUGE mistake, because you get everyone used to it at that price when they should be paying 2 or 2 1/2 times as much for it. The marketing guy who priced the original DDP should be fired, if he hasn't been already.

#2, it started out as PRE-PAID dining and should have stayed PRE-PAID dining! You can't charge people up front for their meals and advertise them as being pre-paid (which, as you can see from the website quote that ALoveFantasmic posted, they are still doing) and then ask people for money when they get their bill. That's ridiculous.

And while I don't condone people taking it out on their servers and local managers, in their defense, who the hell else are they going to take it out on? As with everything else, the dumb-ass suits who made the change aren't there to see the disaster they made. It's always up to the frontline staff to clean up their messes.

Don't blame the guests ... blame the executive leadership team at Walt Disney World who is possibly one of the most incompetent groups of boobs ever assembled. They drop the ball so much they look like Tiki Barber before Tom Coughlin arrived!

I'm actually really glad it's been a disaster. They deserve it and I hope the noise gets to be so deafening that they re-think the changes. Just raise the stinkin' price, deal with it at reservation time, and be done with it. This whole thing could have been avoided and was just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

I agree that simply because a plan includes gratuities doesn't mean you shouldn't leave a bit more in the way of a tip if the service is exception -- however, I'd rather praise the wait staff to a frontline, floor or restaurant manager or drop by Guest Service to praise the cast member (and I have done this).

I don't believe the union wanted gratuities taken out of the plan -- the members may have wanted a bigger cut and that's something that could and should be negotiated ... heck, if I were on the union team one of my demands would be for public disclosure of the percentage Disney is forwarding to the servers. Somehow I doubt it was all that much.

As a member of the public who appreciates good service, I'd more likely add to or up a tip if I knew the corporation was only contributing 10 percent of what I paid to the wait staff. ... I rarely tip less than 15 percent unless the service has been gawd awful (and have tipped 25 percent or more if the service has been exceptional).

The problem lies in the precedent Disney established when setting up the all-inclusive prepaid nature of the program ... and failing to inform guests upfront of the changes. It would have been so much better to simply raise the price by a few dollars per day.

I believe The Yeti is assuming something incorrectly.  No one is complaining about having to leave a tip.  It isn't the tip, it's that the Dining plan took all the effort out of figuring out the tip and letting the guest just enjoy the experience without any fuss.  When the tip was included, you were prepaying for the tip.  So no one is IDIOTIC.  People just are assuming that they already prepaid for their tip and are irate because they are just now finding out different. They might have rejected the plan had they been informed properly.

Everything about the new plan is poorly thought out. Why they KEPT desserts at both meals and ditched the appetizer is crazy.  They could have ditched both of those and left the appetizer or given the guest a choice.  All this could EASILY be printed on the menus to help with the confusion.

As for TheYeti's statement that even with the tip included we should leave something, I have to take issue.  18% is a good tip.  Many waiters don't really perform well enough to deserve THAT.  Now, I will say that there are also many at WDW who are SUBERB.  And yes, those who are superb deserve an extra tip.

First, let me say in many stays at WDW, we've never used prepaid dining plans and probably never will. With a little judiciousness, we can eat well for less.

I'm wondering about the many foreign visitors to WDW who come from cultures where tipping is either nonexistent or nominal. Won't the servers suffer as a result?

I book Disney all day long and the CRO agents ALWAYS tell us the gratuity is not included, people just don't listen. Kinda like your airline ticket is non-refundable, people choose to hear what they want.

I have used the dining option and always left additional tip. People are cheap. It still saves you money. You get nothing for free.

I have many clients that do not go to WDW anymore because of the "trash" clientle at the resturants. They blame the dining program.

"It is up to you, Mr. John Q. Traveler, do find out what changes have been made since your last visit."

Incorrect.  "John Q. Traveler" is a GUEST, and it is not his responsibility to spend time digging through websites looking for obscure plans to change things, no matter if he's used it before or not.   As has been pointed out several times here, they are still telling people it's included.  Since he's shelling out a sizeable chunk of cash (whether or not someone thinks this program is 'ridiculously cheap'), you'd think they could make sure the program details are clear and upfront.  

Before saying " sounds like a typical case of vacationers acting like gigantic BLEEPS because, what the hey, I'm on vacation I can do WHATEVER I WANT", I think we're seeing a case of "Hey, we're Disney, we can do WHATEVER WE WANT".

Why the negativity from some locals towards tourists?  "Ridiciously cheap"?  Based on what?  Jeez, maybe I shouldn't go off-site and spend money if we're not welcome...

"As has been pointed out several times here, they are still telling people it's included."

I speak to CRO at Disney DAILY, they have been quoting the "gratuity not included" to me on EVERY call where I book the dining. People hear what they want and lie about the rest. Too many people with the "if I yell loud enough" idea in their head that they will get what they want.

In club concierge, where I work at the Animal Kingdom Lodge, our biggest issue was with guests who had split their vacations between two resorts and ended up being on BOTH plans!  For example:  A guest from England spent the first 7 days of their holiday at Beach Club Resort, they had the 2007 plan.  They checked out on New Year's Day and checked into Animal Kingdom Lodge for the remaining 3 days of their holiday so they could take our exculsive safaris.  The reservation that checked in on Jan. 1st was the 2008 dining plan.  The guest was LIVID!  It has been a long time since I've been yelled at so badly on the job! We ended up giving him quite a large credit on his room account, as well as comping every appetizer for the next 3 days.

Just one example. He wasn't the only one.  January 1st was hell for many of us.

Past New Year's Day, the dining plan changes continue to ba a major issue for our guests.  Every day we are comping and refunding appetizers for guests who claim that Central Reservations is not telling them about the changes.  This is just one resort, I'm sure the same thing is happening property-wide.

Between that and Florida residents no longer being able to purchase discounted one day tickets on property any longer, I'm ready to hide behind my desk every time I see a guest walking toward me with a reciept in their hand.

Sorry folks, but there were many complaints about the previous DDP, especially as it related to the gratuities, that pretty much demanded the revamping that has occured here...  Table-Service Cast Members complained that the included gratuity of the old DDP, which was pegged to the meal credit amount and not the value of the actual menu items purchased by the guests, was not netting them the true tip value that they would have otherwise earned if the guests had tipped them directly, even if at a slightly lower percentage.  And DDP guests complained too, because they perceived (many of them correctly) that they were getting a different/lower level of service from the wait staff, who would pay more attention to the guests tipping out of their pockets (i.e. those *not* on the dining plan!).

With the new plan, wait staff get to earn their more robust[/i] tips by giving even levels of service to all diners, and everyone is happy, right?  Whoops.  

Face it, the whole Disney Dining Plan has been a fiasco from the start.  

bonk!  

"As has been pointed out several times here, they are still telling people it's included."

"I speak to CRO at Disney DAILY, they have been quoting the "gratuity not included" to me on EVERY call where I book the dining. People hear what they want and lie about the rest. Too many people with the "if I yell loud enough" idea in their head that they will get what they want."

Then please explain this:

"ALoveFantasmic said:

It amazes me that this is what is posted on the WDW site as of this morning.

"From savory snacks and quick meals, to Disney Signature restaurants and our famous Character Dining, experience the freedom of choosing from over 100 select restaurants throughout Walt Disney World® Resort to fit your family's ever-changing tastes during your vacation. Best of all, enjoy the convenience and peace of mind in knowing that most of your meals are paid for in advance, including gratuities where applicable.""

You can't have it both ways.  To say that people "hear what they want and lie about the rest" just plain does not hold water when Disney itself tells people two different things.  That's not the guests fault - that's DISNEY'S fault.  How you can twist that around into blaming the guest or insinuating that they are too lazy to listen or just plain lying is beyond me...

Any table-service cast member basing the level of service they'll give a guest on how much they THINK that guest will tip needs to be fired.

MegaDisney said:

I book Disney all day long and the CRO agents ALWAYS tell us the gratuity is not included, people just don't listen.

Yeah dude I'm sorry, but you're just completely wrong. I'm telling you flat out that I JUST spoke to DVC Member Services not three days ago and they never mentioned it once.

It sounds to me like maybe you're a travel agent or something, so perhaps they're more dilligent in informing professionals than they are the general public but A. their website CLEARLY still contains misleading info (as wabigbear pointed out) and B. I can 100% definitively tell you that they're NOT INFORMING EVERYONE.

I don't get this knee-jerk desire on some people's part to defend Disney at all costs. It's pretty pathetic, actually. Can some people really never admit that Disney screws up?? A lot?? Take off your freakin' rose-colored glasses people!

"Where applicable" is the legalese loophole I'll bet, although it's pretty bad to still have that up on their site now that grats aren't included.

What I want to know if the DDP has actually served its function in keeping ppl on property full-time or not. Because if it hasn't, and  it's a potential PR disaster... I'm getting really annoyed with these public companies. If you all care about is the bottom line, it's Enron and lead painted toys and all sorts of shortcuts that can really hurt the stock price in the long run. It's an investment not a slot machine.

Bonk! said:

"Sorry folks, but there were many complaints about the previous DDP, especially as it related to the gratuities, that pretty much demanded the revamping that has occured here...  Table-Service Cast Members complained that the included gratuity of the old DDP, which was pegged to the meal credit amount and not the value of the actual menu items purchased by the guests, was not netting them the true tip value that they would have otherwise earned if the guests had tipped them directly, even if at a slightly lower percentage."

I am not saying you are definitely wrong, as things DO change all the time, but do you know when this went into effect?  I've talked to several cast members who have confirmed that the gratuity was based off the value of the meal ordered, which was why the servers would push people to order the most expensive items on the menu.  

Word also had it (this one I did NOT hear from the horses mouth) that as part of the DDP setup the servers all had to pool and then split tips made over the course of a day, so that it made no difference whether you gave average or exceptional service, you were going to get the same tip.  Now THIS I could see some servers getting upset about and asking to go back to the old ways, as I am sure that there were some people who made a fortune off tips a night and just as many getting upset about the folks who did not put in the effort getting the same level of compensation.

Perhaps atom could clarify.  :)

I don't work with DVC so I can't speak to what they tell members.

The website states "where applicable" so they have provided a loophole. Which as far as I know is allowed.

Rose colored glasses? I think it is just as pathetic to knee jerk Disney Bash.

Does Disney make mistakes? Yes. Are they always wrong (as this and some other webmasters want you to believe), no.

  wabigbear, the loophole that allows Disney to continue to mention that tips are included "where applicable" on the website applies to THREE locations and three locations only:

Spirit of Aloha

Hoop-Dee-Doo Review

Mickey's Backyard Barbeque

The three dinner shows are the only dining locations that still include gratuity in their prices that are covered by any of the Dining plans.

Pretty sly how Disney covered their bases there.  Technically, the information on the website is correct.

"MegaDisney said:

I don't work with DVC so I can't speak to what they tell members.

The website states "where applicable" so they have provided a loophole. Which as far as I know is allowed."

Well you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I (for one) don't see Disney exploiting some lame-ass "loophole" as them living up to what I expect in terms of their customer service.

And I don't "knee jerk bash Disney." I bash them when they deserve bashing, which (lately) seems to be quite often.

I'll put it in black and white ... outside of Expedition Everest, I don't think they've gotten one thing right at WDW in the last decade. Period. Ergo ... I bash. Once they get their collective heads out of their collective asses I will stop bashing. However, since they're now run by number-crunching suits and not men of vision, I don't hold out much hope that that will happen.

I will say that you being a DL guy probably has a better opinion of them than I do being a WDW guy. I've been to DL and they're getting it right (since Ouimet was there anyway) a heckuva lot more than WDW is.

Mickey's Phillharmagic? The Nemo ride through?

I guess I also don't tend to be bothered by a corporation trying to make money. Many things that seem to infuriate Disney fans I look at as good business, and as a longtime stock holder that is OK with me.

I also don't knee jerk defend Disney. I hate some of the decisions they have made. The entire YOAMD campain, the changing of the names of the towers at the DLH, and the removal of the Disney Gallery at Disneyland, and spending 1.6 billion dollars to rebuild DCA, are some expamples.

Here's another dining story sure to divide some Disney fans:

From the Associated Press

Florida’s Walt Disney World bans children from fanciest park restaurant

ORLANDO, Fla. — The home of Mickey Mouse, Tigger and Tinkerbell has banned kids from its fanciest restaurant.

Beginning this week, children under 10 are no longer welcome at Victoria & Albert’s in the Grand Floridian Resort & Spa. Victoria & Albert’s is Walt Disney World’s only restaurant with an AAA five-diamond rating.

“We want to be the restaurant that’s available for that adult experience,” said general manager Israel Perez.

Only about three families a month ever brought young children to Victoria & Albert’s, said Rosemary Rose, Disney’s vice president for food, beverage and merchandise operations.

Men are required to wear jackets, and women must wear dresses or pantsuits. The hushed atmosphere features live harp music, and the menu, which changes daily, offers seven-course dinners that can last as long as three hours. Prices start at $125 a person.

Rose noted that there are plenty of dining options for families at Disney, which World has 97 other full-service restaurants.

Thanks for the information atom, yeah, that does give them an out, but why can't they just plain be more up-front about this?  If, as some people claim, "guests only hear what they want to hear" then it would make sense for Disney to speak louder.  

I don't think any of this is really about the money from the guests point of view, and I certainly understand Disney's need to run as a success corporation, I think it's more a sign of the disrespect some in the Disney corporation have towards those they supposedly serve.

I really don't understand the child-ban at V&A...if they were only having three families per month it certainly doesn't seem like a big deal, unless those families are actually disruptive, and why couldn't they handle that the same as they would handle any disruptive guest?  

I can't address DVC order takers, but on my recent booking (3 phone sessions) all WDTC employees pointed out gratuities are no longer included in DDP (they also pointed out 8/07 changes to the water parks and more tickets - but since that's to the advantage of ticket buyers, doubt anyone's complaining ; )).

"MegaDisney said:

Mickey's Phillharmagic? The Nemo ride through?

I guess I also don't tend to be bothered by a corporation trying to make money. Many things that seem to infuriate Disney fans I look at as good business, and as a longtime stock holder that is OK with me.

I also don't knee jerk defend Disney. I hate some of the decisions they have made. The entire YOAMD campain, the changing of the names of the towers at the DLH, and the removal of the Disney Gallery at Disneyland, and spending 1.6 billion dollars to rebuild DCA, are some expamples."

Philharmagic is mediocre ... it's a 3D movie, which is technology that's been around for decades ... is it cute? Yeah, it's cute, but that's about it. Does it blow my socks off like Pirates or Haunted Mansion? No. Ditto for Nemo ... cute ... but that's about it.

I have to laugh though ... the things you list as hating are all things I'm fine with. I think YoaMD is the best marketing campaign they've ever done ... and if you're so concerned with their P&L's you should be thrilled with it because it's making them a small fortune.

How you can possibly be down on them spending money for fix DCA, I have no idea ... I was there once and couldn't believe how horrid it was. A complete disaster ... it needs MORE than $1.6 billion, if you ask me.

I guess I sort of feel you on the replacement of the Disney Gallery, but in the end it was just a store and they replaced it with a suite that will make dreams come true for hundreds of guests. Is it really that bad?

Like I said before ... this is a DL mentality vs. a WDW mentality ... we should just agree to disagree.

Disney really screwed up on this one and I hope people keep yelling and screaming and cursing until they change it back and just charge more. This plan was not only about savings it was about convienence and not having the tip included this year is gonna cause them a lot of pain for the front line people and justafiably so. Maybe one day the suites and beancounters will get some sense about them and listen to what people want. Getting rid of the gratuity was not what they wanted and isn't the customer always right? I really hope this type of kicking and screaming continues at a very loud level to the point that maybe they will revisit this issue before next year and put it back the way it was with the gratuity at a minimum. I'm sure that the servers that are getting less than 15% or nothing at all now would agree. And if they really did want this change, there is an old saying that goes like this...."Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it!"

As much as I LOVED the earlier version of the Dining Plan, I don't want my meals at the expense of an already underpaid server.  I would have rather Disney up the prices to cover costs than to screw my waiter out of tips [which seems to have happened in either scenario].

I've never used the DDP because I've known that I would NEVER eat that much. However, I'd like to think that I would still tip my server if I used it. When I'm budgeting my trip, I always budget gratuity in with the rest - just like hotel fees and park tickets. *shrug*

I also don't see why so many are making a big deal out of the Victoria and Albert's announcement. One place out of the entire resort that doesn't truly cater to kids (some clubs at DD excluded) decides to make it a little bit more of a romantic atmosphere for those couples who are spending hundreds on a meal where they might propose or be enjoying an anniversary dinner. Sorry. I don't see the big complaint.

Pickstar said:

>>>"Many things that seem to infuriate Disney fans I look at as good business, and as a longtime stock holder that is OK with me."<<<

Funny, Walt Disney, a consummate businessman, made millions pleasing his Guests, not infuriating them. You have a strange definition of "good business".

waltdisneyworldhacks said:

>>>"However, I'd like to think that I would still tip my server if I used it. When I'm budgeting my trip, I always budget gratuity in with the rest - just like hotel fees and park tickets. *shrug*"<<<

On the old plan, you didn't need to budget in gratuity. It was part and parcel of the package. It wasn't fair to blindside folks who had already taken that into account, and then come to find that their budget is now completely askew.

This was definitely poorly considered. People who bought their plan under the old terms should have been consigned to the old terms. This wasnt exactly a difficult scenario to predict. Nobody likes paying for something, regardless of what the TOS, and then have a switch-a-roo pulled on them in a time and place that they can't do anything about it.

And people have a right to be angry (though, people should have had better sense then to take it out on staff) when they don't get what they pay for. Some of us make these Disney trips on a thin and delicate budget. We all can't have cushion of cash in the event something goes wrong, but we still have the right to take our families on vacation. And we have the right to not be tricked, which, let's be honest, this situation is tantamount to.

WOW!  what an uproar.  I have had plenty of bad service at Disney.  However, when we were ON PROPERTY last August and called to book our trip for this year, due to their solociatation under our door, I was informed that the DDP was changing but only that the tip would no longer be included.  NOTHING was mentioned about the appetizer being dropped too.  Now that I have a tiny little girl who is 10 and will be considered and ADULT in the DDP this in addition to the change I think I'll by pass it this year!  You can send food ahead of time, shipped to your hotel and SAVE TONS OF MONEY!  I did it in the past and I'll do it again! They need to straighten this out, quickly!

"Digital Jedi said:

Pickstar said:

>>>"Many things that seem to infuriate Disney fans I look at as good business, and as a longtime stock holder that is OK with me."<<<

Funny, Walt Disney, a consummate businessman, made millions pleasing his Guests, not infuriating them. You have a strange definition of "good business"."

FYI, you got the wrong guy ... I didn't say that ... that was MegaDisney ... I quoted him to say basically the same thing you said ...

Just some anecdotal info:

We were on site at WDW from the 5th to the 11th.

1) When we booked the DDP, back in August, the DVC rep explained, in detail, the changes that had occured.

2) When we checked in, and the CM saw we were on the DDP, he explained, in detail, the changes that had occured.

3) We ate a total of 9 TS meals, 3 OOP, while there.  Not once did we see or hear a customer loudly complaining.  That's not to say it's not happening, or that customers aren't doing it with a bit more tact, but we didn't see it.

I'll not debate the decisions that were made.  It is what it is.  We'll still use it because it still provides value for our family, and we don't feel "tricked"....we went in to the changes with eyes wide open, and feel we were adequately informed before, and during, our trip.

I can certainly understand the frustration from those that feel otherwise.

I agree with what some of the others have said that they should have just raised the prices instead of charging for something that was free before. And I understand people being upset but they should also look at some disney news before they leave for their trip and then they would know what was going on.