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Its a good response and if this is true, its good to see that money is being spent on parks and resorts i just hope money will be spent on the mainentance of all parks in florida it seems lately that has been an issue... I also think 4000 cast members is oftly high I imagine that will go down after the first year.. when we hear about it in the press event we will know its real
Well, Tony Baxter was openly talking about this concept 15-20 years ago, so I'll believe it when I see it.
As for the questions (to help the marketing dept):
Have you ever dreamed of riding a zip line over a pool full of hungry crocodiles? No
Hand-feeding a hippopotamus? No, but if you really really want to, I can probably set it up for you free at your local zoo.
Observe up-close lions & hyenas ...nocturnal hunting routines. No - I can watch the Animal Planet channel from my recliner.
Explore a cave full of bats? really ? this was just to see if we're reading, right?
Rock climbing? very exotic and difficult to find anywhere else, but I'll pass.
Frolic with some penguins? penguins can smell very fishy and not in a pleasant way.
Grab a gourmet meal? Meals "included in the price" have a historical tendency to be lower quality than meals "not included in the price." Besides, nothing says "gourmet" more than the verb "grab."
Dazzled by a state-of-the-art stage show? This all depends on who's defining state-of-the-art. I'd be up for one of the old-fashioned shows that features lots of crowd-pleasing classic rubberhead characters, but the trend today seems to be more arty like Nemo puppets on a stick, so I'll pass.
In the version that was tossed around a few decades ago, the high-ticket park included a lot more whimsey. Virtual reality rides, program your own AA figure, ride vehicles you have real control over, etc. It focused on what the Disney theme parks were known for and excelled at, not miscellaneous things that are available elsewhere.
Last time I checked, Disney Co is having trouble staffing and maintaining the Florida property now. City Hall is already crowded with disappointed people. If you increase the price, you also increase expectations - expectations that I don't see a modern-day Disney Co willing to fulfill.
Jim, with all the possible interactions with animals will the park be somehow connected with DAK? Sort of a backstage tour after the regular guests have gone?
As Sean Connery would say "I'm waiting to be impreshed". Too early to make a judgement call either way, but I'm not really excited by Jim's description. Plus at $250-$300 a pop, I don't think my family o four could afford it anyways...
Couldn't they just offer these experiences as a special package at AK? Like the behind the scenes tours at the Land....but with lions and hungry hungry hippos.....
-checks calendar....is it April 1st?-
http://www.raymation.net
Moronic. That's my impression. What an odd idea for a park, one that I can't imagine selling. How about upkeep/expansion of the parks they already have? I just can't get behind this idea.
At first, when I was reading that it was going to be a park with limited number of guests and offer more personal experiences, I was really excited. Then I kept reading, and I got bored.
I'm not saying these kinds of experiences aren't fun or exciting, I just think Disney could be waaaaaay more creative with the offerings at a park with the luxury of a limited number of guests.
The immersiveness of the world for a park like this could be unlike anything else created by Disney. People could actually be invloved in a continuing story taking place in real time, with actors playing characters and interacting with you.
The rides, which would be blessed with much less traffic and wear and tear than the normal attractions at the other parks, could be even more amazing.
If they turned the 5th park idea into something like this, I would be all for it.
Right now, I'm thinking, "meh..."
Hmmm. Not sure about this.
What time does DAK close these days? 4pm, 5pm?
What time are they thinking of opening this new 'park', 4pm, 5pm?
Disney have been looking for ways to make more cash out of DAK when the sun goes down for years.
As mentioned by Atomic Bear, are Disney not just developing an 'after hours' experience for DAK? All of the experiences described sound pretty cheap, and could probably be worked into the existing park. I don't think Disney are developing a new park here, sounds like a hard ticket event.
I'll probably be proven wrong though ;-)
Ha, remember when Alice would play with the penguins at Sea World? Marigold, the emperor penguin, absolutely loved her, as he was unaccustomed to humans his own size. She was about two then, and didn't think it all odd that she was being herded away from her parents to hang out with a bunch of tuxedo-clad birds.
Also, you know she'd love the cave full of bats. Jim, you can take her in. I'll let you. You know, 'cause I'm so nice and stuff.
Smilee306 said:
"Moronic. That's my impression. What an odd idea for a park, one that I can't imagine selling. How about upkeep/expansion of the parks they already have? I just can't get behind this idea."
I agree. It is an odd idea for a park. I'm not excited about this one, especially due to the price. I'm hoping it'll just be an extension of DAK. And no rides?!?! That's just not Disney-like!
I'd be interested to see how they are going to get 4000 new CM's to staff this place. Disney, Universal, an SW have stretched the Central Florida employee pool to near breaking. It's so bad that Disney hires pretty much anyone who comes to Casting as long as they don't have a criminal record - they can't be very selective on who they want. I know it's 3 years away but I don't see them having an easy job of it even then.
Agreed that I'm not sure how they will find 4,000 new CMs, let alone 4,000 good CMs.
I think WDW is kind of missing the point of Discovery Cove. Dolphins are iconic, almost mythical. And make no mistake, swimming with dolphins is the selling point of DC.
In terms of value, DC also includes a 7-day ticket to Sea World. I would also point out that SW offers a "touch a penguin" experience now, for around $15. Petting/feeding a dolphin will only set you back $5.
Finally, will they really go to the trouble of re-building the Adventurer's Club, and hiring 8 costumed characters, just to use it for what, an hour a night? Sadly I see that being the first thing to get the axe from this plan.
Wow. How incredibly .............. dull ..............
I seriously hope Disney does major homework on this before they actually committ half a billion dollars to it. I mean maybe Jim only got a sneak peek of the dullest items on their list of "attractions", but there wasn't one thing listed there that would encourage me to spend a grand to take my family of four there for the day.
Honestly, most of the stuff listed can be done pretty much anywhere these days. The local mall has rock climbing. Virtually any zoo has interactive areas now where you can feed penguins or whatever. And I think Disney may have overestimated people's interests in bats ... also, have they ever seen the bottom of a cave full of bats? Ask Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs was that looks like ... guano stew, anyone?
Here's another thought ... for about $450 I can get ONE YEAR'S worth of admission to four of the greatest theme parks in the world (well ... three, not counting AK). Might it not be a tough sell to get people to part with over half that amount just for a few hours in one nighttime park with no rides?
Lastly, I think the nighttime aspect is actually a DETRACTION instead of a selling point. Nighttime in WDW is when all the good stuff happens ... parades, fireworks, lines shrink as parks empty out ...
I dunno ... maybe I'm wrong, but this smells like a failure waiting to happen. You'd think they would have learned from the failure of Animal Kingdom .... people don't come to Disney World for zoos.
DISNEY......YOU ARE NOT LAS VEGAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been following this story for about 6 months now... I think some of you have maybe forgotten about what "Disney-like" really is.
First, Disney sells experiences. Some of them happen to require a track and robots in order to present them. Many utilize live humans and in ONE park (you know it as DAK), the show wouldn't take place without animals. Real, live ones.
Now, if you've ever sat on the Asia trail in DAK and watched the people of ALL ages get excited about being 9 inches (of tempered glass) away from the tigers, I believe all these up-close experiences are hugely compelling. Maybe not to do every year, due to the cost, but much like Discovery Cover will be a special day for most families. Have any of you SEEN the excitement on the Safari trucks at DAK when a giraffe gets even moderately close? Some people just LOVE being able to have an up-close and personal experience, and there's where this parks audience is. Perhaps the "sit around the computer and nitpick Disney" audience is not exactly who a largely active and outdoor experience is being targeted at. Um... no offense or anything.
And, just wondering, did I miss a section that Jim wrote that said the other parks can't still expand due to this park opening? AND, since I know there's a lot of Disneyphiles in here, did ya notice how the theme parks division is out-grossing every other theme park company in the industry? The parks are the corporate cash cow, and the nice thing is instead of funding countless video sequels, now we see some innovation in the theme park department (as people wanted for years) and there's instant nay-saying. I guess that IS the nature of the average internet forum poster. After all, I know how much research everyone posting so far has put into developing a theme park concept, right? I'm sure you have the pulse of the guests better than those "Disney Research" chumps. Anyway, for those with some common sense, it is clear we will continue to see ALL the parks growing, I'm sure of that. They know what side their bread is buttered on now... They just want to add some olive oil and that green zesty stuff to the mix as well. Y'know, for bread dipping?
I think my favorite comments are the ones about how the concept isn't original... Yea, because there's SO many places where you can do the things Jim describes in the article as "attractions." I think the most telling thing was curmugeon's list, reviewing every concept from the viewpoint of someone this park is clearly NOT aimed at: the sit-in-my-chair-and-armchair-quarterback-Disney's-every-decision crowd. You DO realize Disney Adventures have been offering these types of experiences for years with great success, and that there is definitely an audience of people who LOVE doing these types of things. IT won't be for everyone, but if you've never ridden a zip line, you'd have no idea how much cooler they are than ANY roller coaster, anywhere. Top Thrill Dragster is tame in comparison. Now a Villians park, yes, would be fun. But very hardly original, and to be honest you may have noticed that a lot of the "thrill ride" parks aren't doing as well, in part (it is theorized) that many of the experience are easily repeated at different parks. Enthusiasts may travel for multiple ride experiences, but if a family is going to plunk down $75/day (admission + food) per person one theme parks, they like a bit of variety. This park will address that in spades for the Orlando area. Disc. Cove has the dolphins, but I think Disney is going to trump those with both the variety and nature of the adventures being offered. And I predict these will be not "attractions" but "adventures" or "experiences" when the park opens.
The one comment I agree with across the board is the employee pool being very limited these days. That will require some planning on Disney's part, and I hope that plan is put in place soon.
Finally, let's not also forget that this is a "Status Park." If you can tell people you took your family to Disney's boutique park, it will be a huge "Keep up with the Joneses" type item. They are not interested in getting EVERYONE to go, and that is in fact part of the reason why they will market at the deluxe resorts and keep the numbers low. A park where, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. (Which, in America these days, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it... but you'll get it on credit anyways.") On a side note, I think $500 is more likely going to be the cost pre-discount, but maybe not initially. When I first heard the concept, that is what I guessed anyway but this article includes some new additions I hadn't heard about yet.
This park will have a waiting list a LOT. Have no doubt. Or have a doubt, as that's your right. But you're going to feel foolish later. The corporate rentals alone will keep with park in the black.
Pickstar: "I dunno ... maybe I'm wrong, but this smells like a failure waiting to happen. You'd think they would have learned from the failure of Animal Kingdom .... people don't come to Disney World for zoos."
Heh. And Pickstar shows his Disney expertise... Animal Kingdom is the #5 most attended theme park in the U.S. (#8 worldwide) (source: 2006 TEA/ERA report). 8.6% growth over the prior year, more than any other park in North America! What yardstick are you using for failure? Certainly it can't be quality of experience, as you don't get those kind of numbers 10 years in without providing something people are enjoying AND RETURNING for. Notably roughly double that of Busch Gardens and Islands of Adventure. Not bad for a "failure." Isn't it time to let it go and maybe realize that just because it's a failure for YOU, it does have its audience, and stop trying to bend it into a park with dark rides? I don't enjoy Desperate Housewives AT ALL but I am not going to complain that it's a bad show... it's just not for me. I'm glad others enjoy it and it has brought ABC success. By the way, I can't find my source but I am pretty sure that DAK's gate attendance surpassed the Disney/MGM studios (as it was once called... those were the days) in 2007. Does that become the red-headed stepchild?
I think it just bothers some of you that they are looking for a demongraphic that doesn't come to Disney just for stories about faries and mice. Disney is doing what they are good at: growing the market. Universal will have something similar someday, and Sea World went first, but Disney's will be the BEST once it gets its legs. After all, who would have guessed that a park showcasing 12 countries and featuring pavilions highlighting different aspects of human achievement would have been the #6 theme park?
Oh, put your hands down... you would not. Least of all in 1980.
And what exactly is meant by "DISNEY......YOU ARE NOT LAS VEGAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (Other than a sticky exclamation point key?) Yes, that's true, and if your message is that somehow... actually, I have no idea how to debate that assertion. You are right. It isn't. Vegas is in Navada, features gambling and exotic dancers. Disney isn't and doesn't. Both aim to entertain and get guests to drop as much money as possible on their wares. What's your point, exactly?
jmelrose....you make good points.
But Disney always had the corner on family entertainment...why can't you leave well enough alone and always try to out do everything and everybody.
If you have a great restaurant...what's wrong with having THAT resatuarant be the best of the best?
Disney is hard set on attracting WHALES....it is starting to resemble a country in South AMerica. Really poor and Ultra rich. With the rich winning!
I just miss a laid back experience at Disney World....
As always, Disney reporter and blogger Jim Hill has a tasty morsel of theme park gossip to gnosh upon. This Friday morning, it's a piece detailing the possible fifth theme park at Walt Disney World, an experience-driven high-end environment known...
"Disney is hard set on attracting WHALES....it is starting to resemble a country in South AMerica. Really poor and Ultra rich. With the rich winning!
I just miss a laid back experience at Disney World...."
Ah. I understand the Vegas reference now.
Well, it's worth pointing out that just because Disney offers something higher-end does not mean that the other experiences are any less enjoyable. My family today could never afford to stay in a deluxe resort. Does it make me clench my fists and be unhappy when the monorail passes through the Contemporary, knowing that it's occupied by bigger "haves" than me? Not at all. As you point out, why can't you leave well enough alone and always try to out do everything and everybody?
I think that includes our personal lives too. I would never want Disney to not develop something because it might be so expensive or hard to pull off that not EVERYONE can do it. These are theme parks... leisure experiences. Not intended for all. I mean, let's face it, there is NO WAY a park could offer these types of experiences to a regular audience. Many won't WANT to do it, and the experiences will never move the people through like Spaceship Earth. My point, it has to be small... and therefore more expensive.
I mean, let's be honest.. Magic Kingdom in Disneyland was started because Walt saw something and thought it could be done better. Why, when modern-day Disney does the same thing, do they get criticized? Hell, the park isn't even open yet and some on here have already condemned it to fail. They are adding an option... how is that a bad thing?
Wow, what a terrible idea. Kill a brilliant original concept like the Adventurer's Club and turn it into a glorified waiting room. Why not put out copies of Time and Highlights for Children too? As for matching Discovery Cove, everything seems pretty dull to me. Nothing worth $300 dollars per person.
I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it won't be successful. It doesn't mean it WILL be successful, either--remember those "Disney Research chumps" (jmelrose's words) are the same ones who brought us Hong Kong Disneyland, Disney Studios Paris, and DCA.
It's not innovative. It's a knock off of the Discovery Cove idea, clearly designed to keep people from venturing off Disney property over to Sea World's. Sure, Disney will spend more money, and I'm sure it'll look better than Discovery Cove (theming is still what Disney does best). Maybe it'll be more fun, too, but that doesn't make it "innovative".
Finally, there's been enough of a precedent set by Disney's previous expansion efforts to guess what's going to happen: the quality of maintenance and staffing will continue to decline across all WDW properties. That's great for Disney--they've been very good lately at cutting corners while still earning plenty of money for the execs and stockholders, but it's bad news for me, a guy who simply wants to get the best possible theme park experience.
No breaking news here... I heard this on the WDW Radio Show back in January.
Man, I don't think this would be for me (though there are a few aspects in which I'd be interested), but I'm with jmelrose -- I think there will be waiting lists miles long for this.
jmelrose said:
"Heh. And Pickstar shows his Disney expertise... Animal Kingdom is the #5 most attended theme park in the U.S. (#8 worldwide) (source: 2006 TEA/ERA report). 8.6% growth over the prior year, more than any other park in North America! What yardstick are you using for failure?"
Boy, for a dude with his head firmly planted in his rear end, you sure like to talk don't you?
Anyone who knows anything about Disney theme parks (or theme parks in general, for that matter) would recognize that the attendance is up 8.6% because they just built Expedition Everest and Finding Nemo: The Musical. I mean it's almost absurd that you would even point that out as somehow proving that Animal Kingdom wasn't a failure from day one. Why the hell do you think they just dumped $200 mil+ into the park??
And as far as it being the 5th most attended theme park in the U.S. ... again ... talk about a shallow, pointless observation. All that shows me is that it's the least popular of all their theme parks (outside of the only bigger Disney failure, that being DCA), which is what I said in the first place. You just proved my point for me.
In addition, it happens to be attached to 3 of the 4 top theme parks in the U.S. and virtually everyone who visits WDW is forced to pay admission for it and, ergo, feel obligated to visit it. Trust me ... if it was a standalone park in the middle of nowhere it would have closed already.
YUK!!!! This is horrible! take away AC from the everyman and retool it into a foyer. BOO!! HISSS!!! $300-$400 for this luxury. I agree with most of the posts here, it sounds incredibly boring. I think that AK is pretty lame and this is just AK after dark with a climbing wall and zip line that you can find anywhere in Mexico. I am furious right now. Lets say that this night park turns out to be great, which it sounds like it won't. But, lets say it does, I will never spend upwards to $1600 so my family can experience AC. If Disney wants to waste it's time with a boutique park, then go ahead, but do NOT ruin my favroite place in the world (AC) in the meantime.
P.S. I can only hope to one day be as smug, condescending and above it all as jmelrose. Most of the people you refer to as ("sit around the computer and nitpick Disney audience") are very passionate fans of the parks that spend a lot of money there. I don't know how we simps could survive without pretentious blow-hards like you showing us the way. Thanks again for your insight.
This has really shaped up as a big week of Disney news here on the blog, but (apparently) when it rains, it pours; today, Jim Hill has the scoop on the forthcoming fifth theme park that will open at Disney World in Orlando: "Disney's Night Kingdom." Disney's
Well, if I didn't know better, this sure sounds like one of them "let's leak a rumor to someone and see who reports it" kind of stories. Somethin about it just don't seem right enough if ya know what I mean.
Disney does okay with the kind of places they do for big numbers of folks. It ain't the big money from admissions that drives the bus. It is all of the little money spent on other stuff like churros that adds up. I'm not sayin there aren't folks out there who would pay three hundred dollars for a night at the place. Just seems that those folks won't be the kind buying t shirts and all that other stuff that keeps the wheels going round.
Put me on the list of folks who will believe this when we see it.
Hmmm, interesting idea. I think this park will probably do well. However, like many have posted previously, it's not for me. And that's totally OK with me. I have a teenage daughter who is absolutely into the fantasy of Disneyland and Magic Kingdom Park so that's where we will go.
Wow. Sounds seriously cool. I'm bored by most of the Disney parks (AK and DLR California excluded) due to fat people on rascals with turkey legs hanging out of their gobs. Screaming kids on harnesses and the endless crowds. A premium high adventure park sounds like something I would shell out 300 bucks for. All the fun of zip lining in Mexico with the safety you KNOW Disney would provide. Sounds like they are going to start bringing in a more adventurous crowd that can't quite afford a REAL African safari... probably trying to corner that coveted 18-30 something demographic fall off. Go Disney! Plus 300 bucks is a tiny price to pay say instead of actually taking an adventure packed vacation IN a foreign country which can cost upwards of 6,000.
My Main problem is that if you dont like what Disney does dont go to the theme parks, dont go on the boards and dont go the fan clubs and fan sites... Facts are facts Disney Theme parks are well attended and make a boat load of money and if you dont like a certain theme park like Ak then spend your other days off property or doubling up on magic kingdom or epcot... I think this idea could work well and we all know that just because something is an idea or on the drawing board doesnt mean it will be the final product.... i just have a pet peave for people who talk like disney isnt doing the right thing yet disney delivers it content to millions of people every year when disney sees a steady decline in profit or attendance then they will take a different direction im just glad no one has brought up the dumb arguemet well walt would have done it differently...
They have a zipline on Kauai, over the falls.
It really is more thrilling than any coaster. But I still loves me dem coasters.
Say aren't we forgetting to say something? I didn't see it posted above so I'll say it now just for fun. "Walt wouldn't do that!"
I always liked to end my day at Disney by going to The Adventurer's Club. Last trip alone I went there 6 nights. I've met some great people there and had some fantastic memories. It sounds like its going to be a glorified foyer as a gimmick to get people to go to this new park. Please dont take The Adventurer's Club away from us normal people.
I don't mind the idea of Disney developing an exclusive type of park like this. I might even consider paying for such an experience. But frankly the described experience doesn't sound like its worth anywhere near $250. My initial reaction to the description was "Is that all there is". Disney would need to do more than let you feed the animals, provide a show and dinner for that kind of money (and wall climbing and zip lines a dime a dozen).
Also, this would gut the Adventurer's Club, because no-one is going to pay $250 to see the show they can get for $25 (or less) now, and who's going to stay in the club all night if there is something else worth that $250 elsewhere in this park.
I hope there's an imagineer out there somewhere who is reading all this and sputtering "But you don't get it, there's so much more!". Maybe this will be great and we just aren't getting a good picture from the rumor mill. But Disney is going to have to come up with a lot more enticing description than these rumors to convince me to cough up $250.
EpcotFan said:
"I don't mind the idea of Disney developing an exclusive type of park like this. I might even consider paying for such an experience. But frankly the described experience doesn't sound like its worth anywhere near $250. My initial reaction to the description was "Is that all there is". Disney would need to do more than let you feed the animals, provide a show and dinner for that kind of money (and wall climbing and zip lines a dime a dozen)."
Very well said. That's exactly how I feel.
If it turns out that there's a ton of cool stuff missing from this list, I wouldn't hesitate to pay to check it out. Maybe not every trip, but certainly once a year or so.
I think they can and will make a ton with this and I am not at all opposed to the concept in general. I just think this sounds like an ... odd ... execution. They're going to have to have more than zip lines and bat guano to get people to pay 3 bills for 5 hours of theme park fun.
Don't expect any "top secret" details to be released at this point... I can assure you that Disney won't be launching a me-too park - nor will they be divulging all their best ideas for the competition. The examples Jim shared are pretty face level compared to what amazing experiences will likely end up in the park. If you want more examples of what will likely be a part of this park... become familiar with the concept of millionaire travel excursions. Things such as spy adventures - where you fulfill a 007 mission, play with a rock star on stage, and of course, being waited on hand & foot in a luxurious 'millionaire' setting are a couple examples. With that ratio of employees, you can bet on a very personalized experience.
Brilliant! These adventures are normally PRICEY. $300 per person for the night??? Way to go, Dis!
Wow, Jim. I have to agree with Screamscape.com and a couple of your readers on this. Your "reporting" has produced the description of an after-hours DAK experience, not a fifth park. Answer this: Why would Disney build ANOTHER African savannah?
1. Why are so many people annoyed about this?
2. Why are so many people (for and against) so sure that they know exactly what will and won't work in this hypothetical theme park that they heard about today for the first time?
Let's just relax, wait for the official announcement, then wait for the actual park (which will probably differ from the first plans) and then see how it does.
I probably would not go to this park but I'm not annoyed at the concept. In fact, if you don't intend to go, why would you even have an opinion? That's like getting mad that a restaurant that you don't intend to visit is changing their menu. It doesn't affect you, so just move on. I'd love for the 5th park to have broader appeal but there is plenty to keep us all occupied for as many days as we can afford to spend at WDW.
Just one note to Pickstar...if Everest and Nemo increased attendanced at DAK by 8.6% then don't you have to admit that what was a failure at first has now been corrected?
Can't we all just get along.
Has anyone looked at the rough math. 4000 CMs times 8 hours a day is 32000 man hours a day. At a rate of $15 per hour(salary, bennies, etc) that comes to $480,000.00 dollars ad ay just for the help. that does not include the debt payments, materials, etc. If they only let 2000 guests through the gate a day and charge them all $250 to $300 each that comes to $500,000 to $600,000 at full capacity. i don't think the numbers will bare out.
Ayefour said: "Why are so many people annoyed about this?"
1. It will mean that the Adventure's Club would be closed and its replacement will be much more expensive than many of its current patrons can afford. (Removing a popular attraction)
2. If Disney is putting lots of resources into this park, then it probably means it won't be building another 5th regular park for another decade. (Opportunity cost)
3. If it bombs, resources will be sucked form elsewhere in WDW to pay for it, similarly to the way Disneyland suffered for years to pay for the failure of DCA. (Degradation of existing experiences). The money won't come out of Iger's bonus, they'll just raise park rates or cut back on maintenance and new rides elsewhere.
Is that enough reasons? I still hope that if they build it, they will do it well and it will be a fantastic success; however, based only on Jim's article, it sounds like a flop in the making.
The Adventurer's Club is something of a cult classic and it seems an awful waste to move a popular attraction to a place thats only allowed for the elites.
Monorailpilot are YOU getting paid $15 an hour? Because I'm NOT. At the much more likely $9.00 an hour you're looking at $288,000 a night. And 2000 people at $500 a night is $1,000,000. That's BEFORE you count merchandise. Numbers bareing out yet?
Oh and I'm excited. Partially because I'd love to work there.
By 2011, I'd guess that normal park tickets will be pushing $80 per day, parking $15, so a $250-$300 premium park wouldn't be so bad, especially if they throw in food and a couple of days of regular park admission along with it, as SW does. Also, $250-$300 is about in line with what a premium seat at a NASCAR, NFL or NBA (3-hour) event costs, to say nothing of a Hannah Montana concert.
Hey, I'll pay anything if they'll ban strollers.
What a waste of land by Disney to use on this new park idea. If people want
these types of experiences they aren't going to go to Disney for them. Even
though this is a completely different park concept for Disney, they are just
ripping off Sea world's park. What happen to being original?
I would not pay another $250-300 extra for an exclusive park at WDW, and
to allow conference groups to monopolize a limited occupancy park
is just greedy. I think that this is a stupid idea and to add more shops to
pleasure island is a poor answer to bring more people to that area.
I love the adventurer's club and would be upset to see it go.
Look, Pleasure Island has several things working against it:
1. The clubs really aren't worth the price of admission and are no longer unique enough.
2. It doesn't even have the most popular or famous improve club in ORLANDO. (SAC comedy club tops it)
3. The Adventurer's club is essentially the only concept worth salvaging.
4. The atmosphere doesn't work as well with some of the local teenage crowd hanging around.
5. Disney is making so much more off the Marketplace and West Side that PI is seen as a waste. Those clubs are sitting there not making money during the day, shoot I went to a training class in AC! Meanwhile the Marketplace was number two in total merchandise sales behind MAGIC KINGDOM. And they just barely topped us.
In other words, something has to be done whether we like it or not. Sure it sucks but I'm sure if the outcry for another park is high enough that the mouse will build that Villain's Park we all really want. It's not like the other parks are being ignored at the moment.
BTW I was at DHS the other day and not only has construction begun on the new American Idol attraction we lack an article on but there's also construction being done back at the old Hunchback Theater....
Ayefour said:
"Just one note to Pickstar...if Everest and Nemo increased attendanced at DAK by 8.6% then don't you have to admit that what was a failure at first has now been corrected?"
Corrected yes, but at what cost. It's ALWAYS cheaper to do things right the first time around. DAK has suffered reputational damage since it opened, Disney lost revenue from having poor attendance there, and they had to sink another $200 million (or more) into the park just to boost the lagging numbers. Had they built Everest and Nemo (or something comparable) when they had all the crews there building the parks, it would have cost them like 1/2 that much (not even accounting for adjusted dollars in 2006 vs. 1996). Also remember they spent money on that Dinoland garbage.
Tuckenie said:
"Monorailpilot are YOU getting paid $15 an hour? Because I'm NOT. At the much more likely $9.00 an hour you're looking at $288,000 a night. And 2000 people at $500 a night is $1,000,000. That's BEFORE you count merchandise. Numbers bareing out yet?"
Read what he said .. "$15 an hour for salary PLUS BENEFITS." That's actually a conservative number, based on what I know about Disney's benes. Normal cost of even halfway decent benefits is about 30% of salary.
And remember, you're talking about a park with high risk activities going on, plus animal handlers, and a staff catering to high-end guests. These people aren't going to be paid $9 an hour.
A few more thoughts from the armchair quarterback, who basically went through the same type of decision making process that non-disney dweebs would when being asked to part with their money:
If Disney Co wants to open this boutique park as described they will, regardless of what dweebs say. Far be it from me to butt heads with their vaulted research dept. No need to get into what the research folks said about DCA, the Paris Studios, or Hong Kong. Amazing what Walt could accomplish without a research dept justifying things. And that's the main issue I have: This is another example of creating via spreadsheet.
Try some of column A, try all of column B. This boutique as described is just an unconnected mishmash of stuff. I have no strong desire for a Villains park, but by golly I know instantly what it's about, what I expect to find there, and can decide if I want to go. Night Kingdom where you can feed animals and go rockclimbing and a meal and um er huh???
One reason Disney fans get riled up is we know the Co can do so much better than this. They've already got plans for Thunder Mesa - ok build it. At 4pm, or whenever entrance time is, go and design your own bank robber - costume, mustache, on horseback, etc. They can have historical displays about the Old West, or not. At 6pm go ride Thunder Mesa - a long 25 min ride. Make it Pirates calibur plus. You'll be given a pistol with 3 bullets - while on the ride, you've got to find your bank robber and shoot him. If you do, you can go on to the next adventure, or you may have to form a posse and try a different adventure.
This armchair quarterback can come up with that in 10 minutes, with no imagineering training whatsoever. It's unique, can't be found anywhere else in the world, and focuses on what Disney Co does best - that's what people will pay $$$ for. Don't believe me? Go do some research in Tokyo, preferably near the Disney Seas area.
Well, I'm not too interested so far. I'd rather Disney used the cash to finally build the fantasy-based Beastly Kingdom that was originally promised to us. I can tell you that I am not flying all the way to Florida to watch a bunch of hyenas having lunch off a zebra or to feed a smelly old hippo. Big whoop. I could travel a much shorter distance and visit the excellent, world-famous St. Louis Zoo. It's yet another reason AK doesn't impress me much, lavish as it is. It's just a big zoo when you get right down to it. Come on, Disney, when we visit a Disney park, we want to see things we can't see anywhere else! Stop trying to lure suckers in by going the cheap route! Remember your heritage for god's sake.
Hold on a minute, fans of the Adventurers Club!
Let's assume Pleasure Island is eventually going completely away and turned into more Downtown Disney WestSide and open day and night.
Sounds to me like Disney is trying to rescue the Adventurers Club. It will be rebuilt and improved, bigger and better than ever. And while some of its use as the gateway for Disney's Night Kingdom will be using it as a "glorified waiting room" for the high-paying DNK Guests when they first arrive for their adventures, some of them will be exposed to the Adventurers Club environment, CM role-playing actors/actresses for the first time while they are learning which DNK adventures they can sign up for to go on that night. They might grow to love the Adventurers Club as many of us WDW Guests have...
The DNK Guests will be arriving at the Adventurers Club at 4 pm each day, 5 pm during Daylight Saving Time. How long will they need this "glorified waiting room"? Not for more than an hour.
That means the Adventurers Club will be able to be open to other WDW Guests about an hour later...
...OPENING IN THE EARLY EVENING for WDW Guests as it is now. With a wristband sort of thing for the DNK Guests, they'd even be able to come back to the Adventurers Club anytime that evening, then return to DNK again later if they'd like to.
Remember, it is described that the Adventurers Club would be at the gateway to this 5th WDW park, not inside the park. Think of how the Rainforest Cafe works at Animal Kingdom: you can go inside it whether or not you have a passport allowing entry to Animal Kingdom.
Also, the Adventurers Club would be completely rebuilt, enlarging it and improving it.
Yes, looks to me like the planners at Disney are trying to find a way to save the Adventurers Club, not shut it down to any WDW Guest who wants to go to it. If it makes you feel any better, think of it as the Disney's Night Kingdom Guests having it for a one hour "private party" each late afternoon, followed by the new and improved Adventurers Club opening to WDW Guests in the evening, as usual.
I find it funny that there are so many disheartened posts on here... like the rumor mill just posted is all there is to this supposed 5th park. Feed a hippo and climb a wall. It's Disney guys.... do you really think they are going to charge that much of a heap of crap? I'm thinking NO. Also did the post say ANYTHING about replacing your precious adventurers club with NK? NO. And Curmudgeon... that is the lamest idea ever. Thank GOD you aren't an imagineer... Disney doesn't do guns. Way to promote gun touting vigilantism in our youth. Kill a robber save a themepark. How about you just send some kids to south central LA and give them 3 bullets and a du-rag.
Perhaps there are people in America still that would WANT to feed animals and engage in active and physical adventures with the assurance that they cant get hurt or killed.
Also, from what I gather, if you lose a hand to the hippo you're entitled to free drinks and bragging rights back at The Adventurers Club!
"And Curmudgeon... that is the lamest idea ever. Thank GOD you aren't an imagineer... Disney doesn't do guns. Way to promote gun touting vigilantism in our youth. Kill a robber save a themepark. How about you just send some kids to south central LA and give them 3 bullets and a du-rag"
I had a feeling this would come up after he posted that.
I think Curmudgeon had the right idea. Something immersive beyond anything that Disney had done before, that builds on what Disney really truly knows how to do. Telling stories, and getting people involved in these experiences.
That said, it doesn't have to be guns or killing. But something that really gets people into what is going on around them. A completely immmersive movie/show.
I am all for new ideas. And that's just it, as Jim explains it, none of this seems very new or compelling. It seems like other kinds of vacations that would be fun, but not something that Disney could do. The reason we keep poking at Disney to do better is becaus we know that this company is the only one capable of creating experiences like the ones we are dreaming of seeing. The only other place that seems to "get it" is Universal. So when Disney seems to start going off course and letting other vacation destinations decide the direction they go in instead of inventing it themselves, its a bit disheartening.
Keep in mind, I am only speculating from what Jim has told us. I am sure there is much more to this park idea than what we have heard so far.
curmudgeon said: "Amazing what Walt could accomplish without a research dept justifying things."
Have you ever even read a biography of Walt Disney?! Who do you think created the research department curmudgeon? Walt couldn't get funding for Disneyland without hiring a research firm and Disney developed its department from those beginnings. And how exactly do you know they aren't going to use Thunder Mesa in DNK? Maybe we should all shut up with the negativity until something actually get's announced. Till then we're operating off a story with few concrete details about a project that is still in development.
Oh and bravo to Rich Koster for actually talking sense. If I had to choose between no AC and AC expanded at DNK, I'm pretty sure I'm going with the latter.
A long time ago there were rumors of making a recreation of the island in the adventure game 'Myst' for a special experience at WDW, I believe. This project seems like it could be along those lines. A special place that would be very personal and one of a kind. An adventure where you do amazing things, but only see a small group of people ever.
Jim mentioned blueprints... has he seen some sort of master planning aerial shot or something? Where is this proposed park supposed to go?
I've got to admit, while I don't see myself shelling out the cash for this "Millionaire Travel Excursion" park experience... I wish I could.
Hopefully some people realize the guns at the shooting gallery, space ranger spin, upcoming toy story arcade, jungle cruise, great movie ride, indiana jones stunt show, and the one the pirate points at your boat are not loaded with "live ammo." I am reassured to hear "Disney doesn't do guns."
As to Walt and his research dept, sure he used outside experts to determine where to locate Disneyland in SoCal, and how to situate the Magic Kingdom on the Florida property. Was he having folks with clipboards running around to see if people wanted a Matterhorn mountain with a steel coaster running through it, or a show put on by singing birds or bears? No - that was the creativity part. All the "research" said Disneyland was going to be a failure.
There are plenty of creative highly immersive attractions that Imagineering has come up with over the years that have been put to one side because of hourly capacity issues. Use those for your boutique park that has far fewer customers to begin with.
Actually... all the "research" said Disneyland would make millions. That's how Walt was able to turn a 5 million dollar loan into a 17 million dollar loan. Multiple companies were eager to underwrite attractions. Many were turned away (Ray Kroc and McDonalds is one of the most famous).
The people who said Disneyland would fail were the media.
Oh.... and I'll be the first to say it: Disney's Night Kingdom = worst name ever.
Worse than California Adventure?
richkoster, I hope you are right. If that is the case, then I do not care what lies beyond the AC. If it is accessible say after 5 or 6 o'clock, then I would agree that it is a good plan to keep the AC alive. The problem is that Disney's track record of demolishing fan favroites is not favorable. So, here's to hoping.
Oh, I hope so much that RichKoster is right, and that we won't have to pay 250 to 300 bucks each time we want to visit Perkins, Hathaway, Fingers and the gang at the (new) Adventurer's Club!! That Club (and Comedy Warehouse) are the only thing we liked about PI during it's hayday. Please, Please, Please do save the AC, even if you have to move it, but do not destroy it!
The new park itself seems "eh", but Up and Down,
North, South, East and West...an Adventurer's Life IS Best!
Kungaloosh!
Whoa, scary hyena! And if that guy leans any farther forward, that hippo won't be hungry hungry anymore!
It really doesnt matter how well this park is themed if the experiences are not truly special. Discovery Cove has a Dolphin experience. This is a rare once in a life time experience
The crowd that can afford this park can go do several of these activities For real.
Zip Line. just in the United States alone there are many Zip line destinations going over real scenic wonders. If 600 bucks for 7 hours is nothing to you wouldn't you rather zip line in the mountains or for that matter zip line in Hawaii.
Many Zoos with membership have behind the scene activities for their members.
Disney is not gonna be able with letting captive lions and hyenas hunt live game supplied by Disney.
For the clients that can afford the price they go to real professional plays on and off Broadway.
Gourmet Dinner included. This level of guest has probably already eaten at Victoria and Albert's.
Could Disney make this work. Yes but they better be real careful choosing their activities.
Zip line. How special is it.
Well here a small list of the places you can Zip Line just in the United States
Canopy Tours / Zip Line Tours in the United States
S.T.E.P.S. Bonsai Design built Alaska Canopy Adventures - Juneau
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Juneau, Alasak, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
S.T.E.P.S. Bonsai Design built Alaska Canopy Adventures - Ketchikan
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Ketchikan, Alaska, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Alpine Adventures
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Lincoln, New Hampshire, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Alaska Zip Line Adventures
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Juneau, Alaska, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Breckenridge Resort
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Breckenridge, Colorado, Zip Line Ride in the United States of America USA
Captain Zip Line
Zip Line Tour in Salida, Colorado, USA
Carolina Adventure World
Canopy Tour near Columbia, South Carolina, USA
S.T.E.P.S. Bonsai Designa built Cypress Valley Canopy Tours
Canopy Tour / Zip Line Tour located in Spicewood, Texas, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Hocking Hills Canopy Tour - COMING SOON!
Canopy Tour located near Columbus, Ohio, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Just Live, Inc.
Canopy Tour / Zip line Tour located in Kauai, Hawaii, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Kipu Falls Zip Line Safari
Canopy Tour / Zip line Tour located in Poipu Beach, Hawaii, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Moaning Cavern Zip Line
Twin 1500' Zip Line Ride located in Vallecito, California Zip Line Tour in the United States of America , USA
Screamtime Zipline
Zip line Tour located in Boone, North Carolina, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Skyline Eco-Adventures
Canopy Tour / Zip line Tour located in Pukalani, Hawaii, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Spring Mountain
Canopy Tour / Zip line Tour located in Spring Mount, Pennsylvannia, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Tamarack Resort
Zip line Tour located in Tamarack, Idaho, Canopy Tour in the United States of America USA
Zip Adventures
Zip line Tour located in Wolcott, Colorado, USA
Zip Rider
Zip line Ride located in Park City, Utah, USA Canopy Tour United States
Now If you have the Money to spend on a location to Zip Line would you rather do it over a fake scene or a real location.
Yikes, all this talk of zip-lines!!
If, at this Disney "Night Kingdom" park concept, just one of the many things that I can do is something like zip-line right through the sails and rigging of the Wicked Wench[/i] overlooking a recreated scene from Potc, or zip just barely past the outstretched hands of the Everest Yeti, then that would be a zip-line adventure like no other; do-able only at Disney.
Jim's descriptions remind somewhat of the now defunct Ceasar's Magical Empire[/i] attraction at Ceasar's Palace in Las Vegas. It was a pretty neat, 3-hour, hard-ticket experience which combined themed dining, exploration, and live entertainment. I did it once (I believe it was $135.00, including all the wine you cared to drink) and had a blast. It reminded me somewhat of the Adventurer's Club, but probably owed more to the Magic Castle/Magic Island dinner & magic show clubs that were in operation in various places at the time. I also remember thinking that something like this would be great if done by Disney.
I think the already existing storyline of the Adventurer's Club would serve as a natural jumping-off point, or hub, for a multitude of different experiences like this.
I guess I am not so excited by the apparent overarcing theme of 'adventures with animals' that Jim seems to be mentioning here, but if "Night Kingdom" ends up co-existing within Disney's Animal Kingdom facility (Nocturnal Kingdom, anyone?), then I guess that would make some sense...
I anxiously await more official information.
bonk! said:
"I anxiously await more official information."
I anxiously await ANY official information.
Given Jim's track records with rumors, I'll believe this one when I hear it from Rasulo's lips and not before.
I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this rumored, fifth park... and it's quite obvious that fellow Disney fans' opinions are both passionate and mixed!
I have one main concern. Hopefully, this 520 million dollar investment will not postpone/deter capital investments in the other four parks, especially when it comes to the quality of new attractions/ride and MAINTENANCE. As someone mentioned earlier (or above), we WERE promised "Beastly Kingdom", and it would be nice to have a fully-developed Animal Kingdom Park before spending so much money on a totally new venue. After all, AK could become a night park if it had two more E-ticket attractions to keep people there through the evening (and spending money in the parks on meals, snacks and souvenirs). It's okay if Kilimanjaro Safaris and the trails have to close at 5:00 p.m. And it's okay if we can't have a fireworks display at AK because of the animals. Just give us another land to explore in place of Camp Minnie Mickey or next to it. But please keep Festival of the Lion King! Everyone, look to the right when you cross the bridge into Camp MM and you'll see a rock formation in the shape of a dragon. I haven't given up hope on Beastly Kingdom, yet.
We've come to see a fully-mature Disney Studios Park (thanks Imagineers for Toy Story Mania), and let's not forget that there's prime real estate still in World Showcase at EPCOT (another country or two?), and a spot at MK where 20,000 Leagues once stood. Can we please develop our existing parks?
As far as the concept for this fifth theme park (IF it will be a separate theme park), it sounds like the latest step in Disney's "return to the roots" campaign, per say. Let's think about it: 1. they are retheming the entrance to California Adventure, 2. the company is going back to higher-quality animation and movie production with a family focus, instead of worrying about large quantities of films each year (and less of the morally offensive Miramax films of the past... yes, there were some pretty bad ones!), 3. they are slowly but surely pulling out nightclubs at Pleasure Island, and now... 4. there is rumor of a fifth park... putting in something that resembles Disney's "True-Life Adventures" series , which captivated America and some international audiences via television for a few decades.
I don't know if Walt would like the proposed price for admission ($250-300 per person), but the concept sounds very much like "True-Life Adventures". Hence the need to move the Adventurers Club and make it what it should have been from the beginning! It's sort of like the Haunted Mansion rehab in 2007. The story makes much more sense now that the attic scene has been added. Perhaps the Adventurers Club will develop in its story, too... with the addition of several environments that people can choose to experience as part of the story line.
I see the Broadway show and meal as lagniappe to help justify the price and help to WOW the audience with a dose of Disney magic. Otherwise, it wouldn't seem like a "Disney" attraction. Sort of like how the characters are omni-present in EPCOT now (in Future World), because the park seemed "too adult" without them.
Jim, you certainly wet our appetites. Perhaps you could speculate on where this 5th park might be placed?? You didn't mention anything about that, and no one seemed to mention this lack of information in the preceding comments. Let's turn the question around, then.
Jim--what are your thoughts/comments on the location??
Does anyone know how successful Discovery Cove has been? I never hear much about it one way or another.
I haven't been to the Adventure's Club in years....but as others have said, I would sure hate to have to pay $250-300 to visit it again...well bottom line is, I wouldn't. Adventureland or DHS would be a suitable new location.
I had a thought...since so much of the concept seems to involve animals and "adventure"...wasn't Austrailia rumored to be the next major "land" added to AK?....an outback adventure perhaps? Like some theories suggest...that this DNK could be a piggie back attraction at AK....is it possible it could be tied into the addition of Australia...seems like a "out of left field theory".....but if you told me I could go to Disney world and feed a hippo I would have said you were crazy...
Thanks for appreciating my thoughts, folks!
Here's another one, just throwing it out off the top of my head (no rumor or anything to base it on)...
What if this boutique park thing will actually just be a nighttime adventure at the existing Disney's Animal Kingdom? If the rumor is true that the Adventurers Club would be moved to the gateway to the park, where would it be put near the entrance?
My thinking is, I wonder if the days of Animal Kingdom's Rainforest Cafe are numbered? Could it be that Disney knows the lease on that location won't be renewed, so they're thinking of using that building, after refurbishment/reconstruction, as the new and larger Adventurers Club?
"I think Curmudgeon had the right idea. Something immersive beyond anything that Disney had done before, that builds on what Disney really truly knows how to do. Telling stories, and getting people involved in these experiences."
Building on the whole "Thunder Mesa" idea, I know I would love an immersive, personalized sort of Wild West park that had things like a performance rodeo and showpiece "working" ranch, stagecoach and mule rides, Native American village with authentic dancing and cultural exhibitions, saloon stage and outdoor gunslinger shows, live steam in the form of trains and riverboats... Wait, this is starting to remind me of something... Okay, so basically a tricked-out version of the original Frontierland, maybe with a zoo of North American wildlife. And the Western River Expedition. And a walk-through Phantom Manor. Oh yeah, and that could totally have zip lines and rock climbing too!
You know, I'd buy the idea that this is probably going to be an add-on feature to Animal Kingdom rather than a stand-alone park, except in that case, the Adventurers' Club shouldn't be a part of it. Animal Kingdom is about conservation, respecting and learning to share the planet with animals, with the theming mostly designed to accurately represent the Africa and Asia of the real (contemporary) world. I love the Adventurers' Club, but its 1930's British/European/American "big-game hunting" theme is just a poor fit.
While this may be a great thing to some folks, I don't see our family ever doing this. I personally have no interest in the things mentioned in the article, with the exception of a great show. But the biggest thing is the price tag - no way would we pay $300 per person for one evening at a park when we can get park hoppers for a week for the same price. I can't believe this would pay off, but I could be wrong.
The idea sounds interesting, but they'd have to have a HELL of a lot more than what's listed to get me to spend that kind of money.
RichKoster, I love your idea and hope that it is true.
I think Disney should spend the money they want to use on Night Kingdom fixing Disney's rather-boring California Adventure park, (which should have never been built in the first place) before they go pouring more money into another resort thats going to create even more problems. DCA has more potential as a fixer upper that could potentially be something worth visiting again.
The "Night Kingdom" park sounds like an exclusive interactive mix between a night-club and Disney's Animal Kingdom... I don't frequent clubs, and of all Disney parks- my family and I spend the least amount of time at Animal Kingdom. I think this is a bad idea and a waste of money. If they wanted to build a new park, the Port Disney project was a much better idea. Disney should spend money upgrading existing parks/properties instead of building new ones.
I'd love to debate this further, but there's really no point. Again, some of you are clearly NOT the target market for this, just as there are many people that would find the idea of going to a park celebrating fairies and fantasy pretty dull. If you asked me what a more authentic experience is given a choice between riding a "Doom Buggy" through an automated haunted mansion with the same projections of spooks for the Nth time, or some of the mentioned activities, I know what I would pick. As TheDude said, "I think Curmudgeon had the right idea. Something immersive beyond anything that Disney had done before, that builds on what Disney really truly knows how to do. Telling stories, and getting people involved in these experiences."
Except being given a fake gun, or a fake anything, will always be... well, fake. And people these days know fake. Some love fake, but there is a reason Disney's "Adventures By Disney" packages are very popular, and I think that is EXACTLY the demographic that this park is targeting: ACTIVE families, people who would rather not sit and be entertained but instead take a more hands-on role. And not a fake role, but feel the exhilaration of zipping through a forest, climbing a rock face, or any of the other adventures that Disney can provide SAFELY and with the excitement of including animals in close-up ways never seen before. I mean, I'm sure there are some people who come home from Disney, and detail every aspect of Pirates of the Caribbean, but I think they're the exception. These types of mini-adventures are the types of things a family can truly call their own stories, facilitated by Disney, but not written by Disney. I work in the camping industry in the summertime, and as someone who has been there when kids cross rope bridges, climb towers, swing on ropes, etc, I can promise you that a lot of what makes those experiences special is the feeling of overcoming a challenge or stretching ones experiences into a new area. Most of Disney's experiences, being passive, just aren't for everyone, and neither are these new ones. As far as this park not being innovative enough... have you even actually BEEN to Discovery Cove? It's nice, and the UPCHARGE dolphin experience is VERY cool. However, that park is very sedate and is geared almost to a more luxurious, slow-paced, and scheduled, day. There's hanging out by the pool, a lovely lunch, a reef to explore, a heated lazy river, and some very pretty birds to feed. From what I've heard, this new park will be a thrill park in a whole new way, without queue lines and a much higher adrenaline level. I don't imagine strollers/ECVs to be nearly as common by the nature of these activities, although I'm sure Disney will have to find a way to make everything ADA compliant.
The contents of this article are VERY on. This new park will be announced soon, and Jim has a lot of it very correct. It is not an add-on to DAK, nor is it a traditional 5th gate. I think WDW doesn't need a 5th gate, and to be honest I have NO idea what a Villains park would involve. If it's just a lot of thrill rides though, I can tell you that anyone who studies the industry knows that there's a glut of those presently, and it's hurting the bottom line of those companies across the board. There's just not much differentiation there, and I think this concept will be VERY different.
And a few rebuttals:
Pickstar- "Pickstar said: Boy, for a dude with his head firmly planted in his rear end, you sure like to talk don't you?
Anyone who knows anything about Disney theme parks (or theme parks in general, for that matter) would recognize that the attendance is up 8.6% because they just built Expedition Everest and Finding Nemo: The Musical. I mean it's almost absurd that you would even point that out as somehow proving that Animal Kingdom wasn't a failure from day one. Why the hell do you think they just dumped $200 mil+ into the park??"
Well, true. So how much has been dumped into Epcot? Magic Kingdom? I thought the idea was to spend money on these places to improve and refresh them. Mission Space was $100 million. Plus your $200 million does not take into account the new pathway and surrounding area, at least if you are trying to paint Everest as a $200 million expense. According to the Roller Coaster Data Base, the cost was $100 Million. So... is Epcot now a failure too, as your yardstick isn't attendance but rather the amount being spent to improve its appeal? And, if you must discount the attendance figure growth as a sign of the park being improved, let's also be sure to point out that Nemo barely opened in time for the holiday season in 06. Hardly a month of the calendar year, so at some point it's likely that people were going to the park because they ACTUALLY LIKED IT.
TheYeti said:
"Wow, Jim. I have to agree with Screamscape.com and a couple of your readers on this. Your "reporting" has produced the description of an after-hours DAK experience, not a fifth park. Answer this: Why would Disney build ANOTHER African savannah?"
Well, they have the one at DAK, plus one at DAK Lodge, and will have a 3rd at the DVC wing at DAK Lodge. Why not? At least they know their animals and landscaping by now. It would be a pretty sad state if people start getting bored by being able to experience these exotic animals from a distance of tens of feet, or less.
For those concerned about the AC becoming less than it is now, I would ask this: Is a visit to the Rainforest CAfe at the entrance to DAK any less enjoyable than one anyplace else? Why couldn't this become the signature eatery at the park, ideally with huge windows looking out over the adventures taking place inside the park. I could see a 4pm dinner theater start-of-the-adventure meal, and then seatings afterwards without being tailored to those attending the park that day. Maybe the "Club" being off to the side for those who want to hang out after enjoying the park, or get a drink, or whatever. Ideally maybe closed-circuit TV feeds so you can watch guests adventure inside the park. I dunno... I think it can be a much cooler setting than PI, although i don't think it's a bad fit there.
jazzmoe said:
"P.S. I can only hope to one day be as smug, condescending and above it all as jmelrose. Most of the people you refer to as ("sit around the computer and nitpick Disney audience") are very passionate fans of the parks that spend a lot of money there."
Aw, thanks! This is nothing compared to me in person. However, don't hope for too long, jazzmoe. You're almost there now. Just a little pixie dust...
"The problem is that Disney's track record of demolishing fan favroites is not favorable."
Yes, because it's all about YOU. Which seems to be a pretty common feeling around here. If it's not for YOU then its not for Disney. Because, you, of course, ARE Disney.
Jim, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about why the Disney Institute concept failed.
I mean, here were personalized experiences geared toward a small number of people, some of them offering things only Disney could offer. (I took an animation class there taught by a Disney animator -- to me, that was FAR more interesting than any experience listed in the article).
So it seems to me that if the Disney Institute concept failed, while offering more interesting experiences at a lower cost, I don't see why this concept would fare any better.
If the DI had remained operating, we'd probably be incorporating something from their offerings for every visit (as it was, we had the opportunity to visit twice before it was closed). If the Night Kingdom happens, I can't imagine it being something we'd want to do again and again (and for the current list of experiences, I frankly probably wouldn't do it once).
This has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever seen floated by Disney. Not only does it further split the Disney audience into "haves" and "have-nots," it fails to capitalize on the core concept of Disney theme parks: Namely, that they are places where the entire family can have fun together, no matter their age. I can't imagine many 10-year-old kids staying up until 1:30 in the morning to go to a Disney "night" theme park, then waking up the next day for the rest of their vacation.
And what of this concept? If it's "Animal Kingdom After Dark," and that's it, then maybe it's fine. But an entirely new theme park? For $500 million? It's a waste of money and effort.
Disney needs to stop chasing after the competition. Once upon a time, it WAS the competition. Now it's trying to emulate everyone else. That's sad.
If Disney has the desire to spend $500 million in capital investments in Walt Disney World, I've got some ideas:
* Expand the Monorail system and purchase environmentally friendly buses for transportation;
* Improve Epcot and Animal Kingdom, two parks sorely in need of constant attention;
* Add some more Lucas-themed rides to Disney-MGM Studios (oh, excuse me, Disney's HOLLYWOOD Studios, thanks to that ridiculous decision)
* Get rid of that ugly, noisy, under-utilized "race track" in the middle of the property;
* Put some more creativity and imagination into MK's Tomorrowland; bring us back "the future that will never be";
* Develop more conservation areas in WDW -- now that the rest of the world is "going green," what happened to Disney's once-groundbreaking "Environmentality" program?!
Those are just a few. Right now, I've lost all faith in Iger, Staggs and Rasulo when it comes to WDW. They're strip-mining the land to wring a few more bucks out of partner hotels; they're basically raping the wallets of consumers DURING A RECESSION; they're showing no real creativity or creative bent; and they're failing to manage a transportation and urban-planning nightmare (have you been to WDW during peak times?!).
In about 10 years, they've undone the 40 years of planning and development around WDW that came before it. And here's another example of that. What a sad commentary.
There's NO WAY this is an entire theme park for $520 million. Disney's spending 1.1 billion on updating two areas at DCA and adding a new Car's themed land. Do you really think $520 million is going to go very far? Didn't it cost something like $350 million just to build Everest?!
This is an Animal Kingdom add on... if it actually exisits at all.
No ride mechanisms = lower development price
Smaller crowd = smaller footprint
2,000 = 10% of an average day at the other parks.
$350 million on Everest? Wade through my post above... $100 Million for Everest. Adding the theming and additional infrastructure around the ride and making the pathway ready for more rides someday bumped the final cost to around $200 mil, apparently.
Chernobog said:
"If the DI had remained operating, we'd probably be incorporating something from their offerings for every visit (as it was, we had the opportunity to visit twice before it was closed). If the Night Kingdom happens, I can't imagine it being something we'd want to do again and again (and for the current list of experiences, I frankly probably wouldn't do it once)."
and
"Try some of column A, try all of column B. This boutique as described is just an unconnected mishmash of stuff. I have no strong desire for a Villains park, but by golly I know instantly what it's about, what I expect to find there, and can decide if I want to go. Night Kingdom where you can feed animals and go rockclimbing and a meal and um er huh???"
And yet, despite many people probably finding the idea of going on vacation to take classes (particularly KIDS) fairly reprehensible, that appeals to you. So why be so critical of a concept that is just as valid and has appeal to a different audience? Some people go for weeks to see animals, rock climb, and eat. It's called CAMPING. The "adventure vacation" industry is currently huge, with everything from climbing to rafting to bike trips being guided by professionals year-round. Adventures By Disney is doing great, and I'm sure the program will have a DVC-style Kiosk inside this park. Like I said, it just seems like to so many people, unless it's the Disney THEY want to see, it's not "good for Disney" and is therefore renounced as bad for everyone. Dissenters to that opinion are then told they are very passionate fans of the parks that spend a lot of money there... Clearly Disney already has those people hooked, maybe they're going for a different audience. How can bringing more business to the resort do anything but encourage the suits to continue to grow the brand with more and better things. (Provided, of course, those things survive being attacked on the internet while still in an embryonic state...)
Again, I'm glad you know what the Villains park had to potentially offer guests. To me, Villains is an even more ambiguous theme than any bu