The problem is, both parks have oversold this attraction.  It's a classic C-Ticket attraction--but with a lot of nice exterior ornamentation, especially in California.  Also the AA of Mr. Potatohead is fantastic.  But this aside, this ride is on par with Buzz Lightyear's Astroblasters.  It's a shooter--with video screens and 3d technology.  But nothing more.  It's fun.  The problem is that the promotions department has over-emphasized the technology in this attraction so that park regulars are expecting an E-Ticket attraction, instead of the very nice C-Ticket attraction that awaits them.

I am confused.  There are tons of positive reviews over on WDWmagic for Toy Story Mania.  Everyone is really excited about these additions.

This is an online community.  People from EVERYWHERE gather together to say pretty much anything they want.  So, yeah, you're going to get the whole range of opinions.  And that's about all I see, a full range.  I think that people have the tendency to pick out the things that irk them on online forums.  In my opinion, there are just as many people complementing Imagineering as there are people talking it down.  And most of the time (as with anyone I've ever been to the parks with) have many varied opinions on all the things offered at the park.  Some like Its a Small World but hate Stitch's Great Escape, and some like Monsters Inc Laugh Floor but hate Carousel of Progress.

To glaze the whole internet thing over as "too negative" is a great overgeneralization.  Besides, so what if they say the acoustics are bad?  Shouldn't specific feedback like this be welcomed?

Well where to begin...

First let me say that all the cast members I've talked to that went to the preview loved it and would've ridden it over and over again if it didn't break down.

Second I'd say that complaining about the acoustics is silly when you realize that the ride is supposed to be a midway carnival gaming area, which is never supposed to be quiet.  That's part of the atmosphere.  Hello!  THEMING!  The WDI guy should've just pointed this out and moved on.  I'm sure there's more to it then that but I heard no such complaint from others and it sounds silly.

Third the WDI guy is probably right about the negativity and like most other entertainers they SHOULD be ignoring the internet.

Fourth I'm on the side of the anti-changes people when it comes to Small World.  It just seems wrong headed and the artistic equivalent of adding anime characters to Salvador Dali paintings so kids will like them.  There ARE times when WDI should pay attention to some constructive criticism.

Lastly I'm curious to know if this guy is one of the ones all fearful over their jobs on a regular basis.  Maybe they feel overly defensive for a reason?

(Oh and please never post a picture of that abomination in tomorrowland again.  Just looking at it makes me want to cause a protein spill.)

PS to Pickstar:  Hi!  Please don't be too harsh on the WDI guy.  Remember he's going to "ignore" you.  Also, I hear they're going to add more to the end of Spaceship Earth so maybe they shouldn't ignore the internet...)

This has already been pointed out by posters on this site as well as many other sites. Here's the timeline: Disney Co opens a new attraction. Within minutes someone has an online coronary. The coronary creates a bandwagon that many jump on. After the dust settles, other posters start to point out that the vast majority of park visitors that ask when the 3:00 parade is will not even notice this coronary-causing incident. The posters calm themselves down without the need for outside intervention. Disney Co's national television ads end up reaching far more people than a couple ticket holders with an ax to grind.

I would suggest looking at the internet responses - in addition to - the official guest surveys. I've never taken a Disney Co survey that would turn out with results different from what the survey writer wanted to begin with. ("Would you say your experience today was fun, really fun, or super fun?"  -->   "Our visitors tell us overwhelmingly that their visit to the park was fun.")

"I liked this ... technology better the first time that I used it back in 2000 when 'Pirates...' first opened at DisneyQuest"

Gotta admit, I've never heard anybody talk this way, especially when asked how they liked a new ride.  Guess that's the way Disney World "insiders" talk. I also haven't been anywhere in Disney World that I didn't feel like "one of many."

Here's your imagineering seven inciteful phrases checklist, which hopefully leads to a high comment count :

1)We get bitched at    2)How typical      3)constant bitchfest   4)Disneyana fans complain     5)always find things to complain about             6) foamers

and the holy grail: 7)we're not out to please the annual passholders    

It's all good. I rarely complain to Disney Co anyway since I know that very few are listening. Instead I just stopped buying annual passes, which led to far fewer park trips, which led to much less Disney Co spending. Left room for a few more who won't notice any problems.

WDI still does some things very well (Everest) and when that happens they rightly deserve (and receive) praise.   They've also done a lot of things poorly, IMO, and damaged the integrity and cohesiveness of the parks that were entrusted to their care.   I understand that Imagineers have been limited by budgets, but even WDI must look back on the last 15 years and see that they've wasted a lot of space, time and money on duds like California Adventure (only costing $1billion to attempt to fix), Walt Disney Studios Paris, redevelopment of EPCOT's Future World, Disneyland's 1998 Tomorrowland, "Tiki's Under New Management", DinoRama, etc.

Who wouldn't agree that the parks would be much better off today with the original Monster Sound Show or Imagination pavilion rather than their replacements.

WDI has also violated the underlying theme/story of many park areas by shoehorning in currently popular characters (e.g. "Monster's Inc" and High School Musical in Tomorrowland, Lion King in Discoveryland (Paris), "Nemo" in the Living Seas", etc.).  

Forums like MiceChat and WDWMagic are decent places for vetting opinions on the work produced by the Imagineers.  Among a great deal of bad, useless opinions & ideas put forth, there are actually some good, useful ones.  

To Jim's Imagineer friend...

Those "foamers" help pay your salary, so get back to work, and do the job right the first time, and quit bitching about it anonymously on some fan sight.

So much for professionalism.  

"When it comes to Walt Disney World, we're not out to please the annual passholders. Our goal here is service the tens of millions of other guests for whom a Disney World vacation is a once-in-a-lifetime experience."

While most of what WDI comes out with is - on the whole - excellent work, the thing that separates Disney attractions from other theme parks is attention to detail That said, there is a fair amount of nitpicking and everything I've read about TSM on the 'net has been great.

However, it is the above statement that troubles me. Disney needs to realize where their bread is buttered. Annual Passholders and DVC members come to Disney far more often and spend far more money  (over time) than the once-in-a-lifetime guest and should be treated accordingly . When the economy slows down who do you think will continue to come down and hand their money over to the mouse? It certainly won't be the $5000 trip of a lifetime guests.... it'll be the loyal APs and DVC members. The same thing happened after 9/11 when they couldn't give rooms away. The APs and DVC members still came to the parks and still spent money.

This is on top of the fact that APs and DVCers are about the best promotion and recruiting campaign out there. When anyone I know wants to plan a trip, my family is who they turn to for advice. Why do they turn to us when they think of Disney? Probably because we don't shut up about how great the place is and how much fun we have!

The Disney fan community as a whole are surely a bunch of malcontents to a degree, but when did having high expectations become a huge character flaw? WDI can get it right, look at the Haunted Mansion refurb. I know of not a single person who doesn't feel the ride was extremely "plussed". Your casual guest is going to love everything and give attractions high marks because they don't know any better and aren't in a position to notice a decline in quality (if one is present, that is.)

"For our years & years of hard work? No. We get bitched at for the one thing that we got wrong."

Um, yeah. That's called life. If were to walk the 40 miles it is from my house to Disneyland and stop a half mile away, would it seem reasonable to say "man, I walk 39 1/2 miles and I don't get to go to Disneyland just because I didn't walk that last 1/2 mile".

No one EVER gets full credit just because they tried hard and got it ALMOST right. If a pharmaceutical company toils for years on a new drug and gets one thing wrong, think the FDA will approve it? No chance.

The years of research and development and test and adjust are supposed to be so that you DON'T get anything wrong, and if you do, you FIX it. I don't see how WDI is expecting us to just cut them some slack and say "well, they tried". This isn't even a Disney thing; it's just a bad ideology for a company to have.

What your imagineer friend is literally saying is that we should settle for second best. That we shouldn't expect the best if ALMOST the best is good enough. Maybe they're just getting complacent.

And while I realize that these rides aren't designed for the frequent visitor, that doesn't mean our opinions don't matter. The reason we point this stuff out is that we're in a position to notice. Yes, someone who only ever visits once wont notice that the parks perhaps aren't in as good a shape as they used to be. Obviously. But little flaws like acoustics slowly but surely degrade the experience, to the point where the magic is lost. And eventually, the general public WILL notice.

You can say that again C33.

The Imagineers read the boards?

I find it hard to take, they are all focused on how good it should look. They are all into brick color, and characters. To the point of spending 70 Mil on the attraction, but we should look past that one deficiency. Then what are you people doing spending 70 mil on this attraction.

With that kind of money being spent, I would expect an above average experience.

The Imagineer has it EXACTLY right... people on these boards (similar to the posters over on aintitcoolnews.com's talkbacks) are all obsessive armchair quarterbacks who think they know Disney (the man, the brand, and the company plan) better than anyone else, and post thinking their perspective is the right one.

Over on Miceage's forums, people have been ready to write of TSM, declaring the queue to look "cheap." That was where I stopped reading, as I found the queue to be thickly themed, particularly for a "C-ticket" attraction, which I would agree is about where this ride is at.

I can definitely see how after putting in that much time and effort, to have some one who DIDN'T EVEN PAY TO RIDE IT (and probably won't) come in and crap all over the work... well, that WOULD be frustrating. There is a big difference between the tone of an article with feedback and one that is just bitching for the sake of itself.  Not to say that annual passes are free, but its a new addition to the park, so it does nothing but enhance the value of your pass as a new experience.  Then there's those on here who don't think it enhances value if it isn't the experience THEY wanted, or they would have chosen.

And let's remember... Annual Passholders and the cast DO come in for free, get a shorter line preview of the ride, and for Disney's efforts to give those people a more pleasant experience the thanks they get are complaints.

I take some small comfort by reading the comments here and realizing that there are so many flawed rationales for why it should be OK to nitpick new attractions to death that at least I know that average, normal, rationale, sane person can still enjoy the experiences the Disney parks have to offer.  Comparing a new ride attaction to a drug protocol... that's a PERFECT comparison. One is art, the other science. What could be a more analogous scenario?  

Oh wait... how about comparing it to a WALK that the person doesn't bother to complete.  Here's a more appropriate analogy C33: "Hey, you ran that marathon, but you stumbled 24 miles in and lost your stride for a bit. Wow, you suck at marathon running." (You may as well add: "... Of course, I don't run marathons, I prefer to watch those who do and then point and laugh at their failures. I could never do something so challenging myself, though. Who has time to create when I can sit here at my desk and bash away.")

They've been saying for YEARS "Eventually the general public will notice." And yet Disney continues to break attendance records. Hmm.

And THIS: "Disney needs to realize where their bread is buttered. Annual Passholders and DVC members come to Disney far more often and spend far more money  (over time) than the once-in-a-lifetime guest and should be treated accordingly . When the economy slows down who do you think will continue to come down and hand their money over to the mouse? It certainly won't be the $5000 trip of a lifetime guests.... it'll be the loyal APs and DVC members. The same thing happened after 9/11 when they couldn't give rooms away. The APs and DVC members still came to the parks and still spent money."

No, the APs and cast are not the bread or the butter. THe families who have saved gagilions of dollars to travel to FL and brought 3 kids and each has a suitcase just for souvenirs is exactly where the bread is buttered, and where Imagineering's attention should lie. (And does anyone here REALLY think they know the demographics of who visits Disney BETTER than the Imagineers? Who do you think those people in the Disney Research shirts give their data to?   And who will be the ones filling in? Well, if in these harder times you're thinking the locals will ALSO continue to come and drop loads of cash, perhaps you're a bit out of touch.  The people who will continue to come, and who are here in droves currently: internationals. A weak dollar makes for a much cheaper trip for those from overseas and there seem to be plenty of folks taking advantage of it.

"Scrooge McDuck said:

To Jim's Imagineer friend...

Those "foamers" help pay your salary, so get back to work, and do the job right the first time, and quit bitching about it anonymously on some fan sight.

So much for professionalism.  "

To internet poster incensed because someone called you out on being an obsessive overly critical internet forum poster (and it struck a little to close to home for your liking):

"I pay your salary." Yea, like he's a public service. I'm sure if he could give you the $0.0004 of his salary that *YOUR* contribution into the Disney communal money pool back, he would. Sounds like he's saying he can live without the several hundred "regulars" who come in, pee on the toilet seats, and then leave.  

Yea, YOU are a real voice of reason. Get the job right the first time? Yes, clearly very reasonable expectations. The ride opens to get feedback and address issues, but there shouldn't be any, it should be perfect right from the first time the green "Go" button is pushed, right?

And criticizing someone else for posting anonymously? Unless your parents have an odd sense of humor, I believe you have just called the kettle "black."

So much for not being a "foamer."

Why doesn't Disney/WDI take a play from Apple's playbook and not say anything about an attraction until it is finished?

You are always going to have complaints/criticisms regarding the asthetics of a given ride or attraction.  You cannot please everyone all the time.  Anyone in a creative field knows this.  If a ride breaks down however, that is a different story.  In that instance, you are REALLY going to aggravate that family that has travelled 1500 miles only to be turned away.  They're not concerned about the color of the bricks.  I hope Disney is not rushing the opening TSM.

 jmelrose said:

"And let's remember... Annual Passholders and the cast DO come in for free ... "

Huh ... free? I wonder where that $450 I've been sending them every year is going then? Free ... who knew???

I've always been stuck in a rut on the side to choose.

Some people seem to be stuck in about 1964.  If Walt didn't put his personal touch into absolutely everything, they'll hate it.  Whenever a scandal comes about with the Disney Channel stars (or even former Disney stars), they're the first ones to say that this kind of thing NEVER happened with the people under contract with Disney back in the days of Walt, apparently forgetting that those people weren't always that perfect either -- they always quickly forget about such things as a certain Mousketeer that was a Playboy centerfold.   These people, you wonder why they even buy any new Disney product or go to the parks anymore -- the times have changed, but they're not willing to change with it.  Although, on one hand, they can have a point at times -- sometimes the old ways were great.  But, I think that the new leadership of Disney realizes that, so we shouldn't really complain too much, should we? We should just sit back for a while and see the improvements slowly come over time.

This guy from WDI does have a point.   They are looking at the once-in-a-lifetime visitor.   They're the ones that are giving them the big bucks -- while some APers may eventually provide more cash than the once-in-a-lifetimers, I doubt they're the majority.   When you go to WDW once, you can easily spend a few thousand to not only buy all the mementos of that trip, but to also buy something for absolutely everybody back home that couldn't come.

The general public is much more easily pleased because they aren't seeing these every day.   Now, if something really goes wrong, they'll complain.   But, Disney does a great job of making the experiences so unique to them.

Walt once said that he doesn't make things for the critics, he makes them for the people.   In these days, the critic has just changed formats, going from the newspaper critic to just about every APer around.

On the other hand, they shouldn't be ignored completely.   Some complaints are valid and, if they listen, they might see that maybe it *will* help.   But, there's probably a reason why they can't always fix it to make it perfect enough.   Whether it's Stitch's Great Escape, whose show format will ALWAYS be difficult to please everybody, or just the budgetary restrictions.

Choices always have to be made.  Not everything will come out perfect.   Nothing can ever be the best.   You always have to settle for second best in order to have room to improve.

There will always be problems with new attractions.   And they will be solved one by one in the order of urgent needs.   If there's a choice between some acoustics (which sound like they might actually add to the theming) or an animatronic that functions at 100% all the time, I'd go for the animatronic first.  Things may be noisy, but if something major is broken, we can trust the general public to say something.  Sometimes.

Although, the general public overall is just a lot easier to please.  After all, these are the ones that usually will call the attraction by everything but what they're reading...   and we all know that many won't even remember any specifics about 90% of the attraction if we're lucky.

There needs to be balance.   But, the fans need to learn what's valid complaint and what's not.   If a lot of trash is visible on an attraction, make it known to those that can make a difference -- the cast members.   If a CM isn't up to code, city hall can help.   Complaining to the Internet won't do much good.  When done in some sort of official manner (and when you don't make it look like you're just complaining about absolutely everything), I'm sure it's at least a step in the right direction.

I rode TSM for the taping that Jim posted the Craigslist ad for a week or so ago, and I absolutely LOVED the attraction!  The theming was amazing, and the ride definitely has rerideablilty.  I prefer TSM to Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters- I like Buzz, but TSM has many different games to play.  The 3D wasn't on/working when I rode it, so I can't wait to ride it in 3D- even without the 3D, the ride was AWESOME!!!  I didn't notice any sound problems when I rode it- I was too engrossed in the experience to notice.

I think it's sad that Imagineers are overlooking APs and DVC members...paying people are paying people.  It's true that you can't please anyone, but don't attempt to do a half-good job and not expect people to notice (TSM was NOT a half-good job, though- it's a wonderful attraction!).  It's cheap to have the mantra that "we make attractions for people who only visit once who won't notice if something is wrong"- Walt would NOT have approved that.  I know that Walt is long gone, but his name is still on the company, and his values should still be in place, in everything any Disney cast member does.  

I would think that the Imagineers would want the feedback, both good and bad.  There surely is good feedback out there, and there surely is some critical feedback out there.  You would think that with a job like an Imagineer that they would challenge themselves.  "Oh, people are complaining about the acoustics?  Maybe we can find a way to improve that!" should be how they think.  Just because the average one-timer to the park won't notice doesn't mean that everyone else is chopped liver.  I just bought a new annual pass, and I don't want to feel like I don't matter.  Everyone who walks through the turnstiles should matter...sure, we "Disney geeks" can be nit-picky, but we just love the company so much that we want the best from them and for them.  It'd make Disney look better if the sound problem were fixed, so there would be less complaints, and those who are complaining about it would be more inclined to be happier while riding it.

Jim, your WDI guy has a point. Us online Disney Foamers, and I am proud to be a Foamer, complain too much. Unfortunately I think that's just part of the internet. People write things and post them online and then forget that there are real people with real faces who are on the other end. Online, people write things that they would never, ever say to somebody to their face. I have a standard reply to many critics: If you don't like a certain book then write one yourself.

I also observe something silly. It's currently 6AM Pacific Time and look at all the posts that were made before me.

I remember a time when WDI always shot for the stars and didn't worry about whether people noticed or not.

I don't like this new attitude that says, "We're just doing enough to please the once-in-a-lifetime guests and screw everybody else."

And it has nothing to do with the whole, "Yeah but we're your most loyal customers blah blah blah" argument ... it's simply that it's bad business practice.

You meet people's expectations and they leave feeling like they got what they came for. You BLOW AWAY their expectations and you convert them into loyal customers who keep coming back year after year.

I mean most of Disney's AP/DVC guests of today cut their teeth on the old Disney. That's why we became such loyal fans. Is next generation going to produce the same kind of loyal fan base?

Only time will tell for sure, but I'll guess that if they keep up with this "doing just enough not to get complaints" attitude it won't.

Also one other point I forgot to make ... I don't like people telling me what I can and can't complain about.

It's MY vacation dollar. I set the expectations on what I get in return for it and if I don't like what I'm getting, who are you to tell me that I'm wrong??

It's so funny man ... only Disney gets people so willing to cut them slack. If it was Wal-Mart or Sony or Microsoft people would be lining up to rip a group of people who were continually offering less for more. I never get why people are SO WILLING to throw themselves on the ground and worship at Disney's feet.

Aww, jmelrose, I'm a little insulted that you insinuated APs and CMs don't spend any money at Disney. Before I was a CM I held an AP for quite a few years. If the $400 price tag to the AP wasn't enough, I spent money EVERY time I went, which was nearly once a week. And as a CM, disney gets most of my paycheck when I go to visit.  Not only that, but the hours I put in at work are long and very tiring at times...especially in that summer heat. I think my hard work to entertain those "once in a lifetime guests" is worth the times I get in. And to let you know, I am ALWAYS thankful to work where I work and to do the things I do.

Also, this WDI friend needs to get a clue-- 60% of theme park guests are repeat guests. Read: AP and DVC members.

Many thoughts:

1. If WDI/Disney were truly making attractions for the "once-in-a-lifetime" visitor to WDW, then why would they "update" and "change" things that were great when they opened and still would be---hello "Horizons"? "Universe of Energy"? No magic wand arm on "Spaceship Earth"?? That statement is patently false and silly. The fact is, updates are cheaper than new builds, and they keep people working and getting paid. Period. They're obviously about repeat visitors and giving old-timers a new reason to revisit, which is basic Marketing101, i.e. it is much cheaper to re-milk an existing customer than to get a brand new one in the first place. So the statement that everything they do is geared to brand new "once in a lifetime" folks is....a lie. Whether the person making the statement KNOWS its a lie or is buying into the lie is the only thing at issue there.

2. Criticism is the way of the world--get over it. When any artist in any medium does anything, people bitch and moan. That's life. And the most annoying kind of critique is the "Why didn't they make it the way --I-- would have if I had the talent/money/time/connections/ability???" critique. The one that doesn't deal with the thing as it is and on its own terms and judge whether it succeeds or fails at its own goals and in its own style and with its own content vs. the one that tries to re-think, re-theme, re-imagine it based on some outside standard. If you wanna be an artist, you deal with it. If you wanna be an artist with some style and class and professionalism, you deal with it QUIETLY. If you wanna be a whiney crybaby, you whine and cry about it. Period.

3. Just as consumers of art--especially expensive art made by big corporations--complain if things aren't how they wish or think they should be vs. dealing with things on their own merits, the CREATORS of such art who are working within a highly competitive and political climate within said corporation complain about things based on their own self-preservationary priorities. There is a lot of "My BOSS might read that kvetch and HE is even LESS sophisticated about taking criticism than --I-- am, so STOP IT PLEASE you're jeopardizing my JOB!" going on here. Every project done has people who didn't win the competition to build it seeking to tear it down for their own career aggrandizement's sake, and having "independent" sources of bitchery to cite instead of just their own clearly self-centered ones helps their cause and hurts those who won and built it in the first place. It is natural to WISH that such outside confirmation of how "bad" their work is didn't exist. It is also foolish, childish, and unprofessional to vocally (even when anonymously) COMPLAIN about this fact of life.

SOooooooooooooooooo...the bottom line for imagineers, fanboys-and-girls, casual internet visitors, and actual park guests whether once-in-a-lifetime-types or certainly-NOT-"free"-and-thus-important-too annual passholders or even cast members to do ONE THING and ONE THING ONLY about all this:

GROW UP.

Thanks. Next?

Oh give it up. I said in my post that APs are not free. The ride is a value-addition to your pass, and so it costs you nothing extra to experience it.  It is as if the software you bought for your computer recieved a X.1 update adding a few new features at no cost.  Practice some reading comprehension skills before you nitpick the post the way you people do the parks. I'm well aware that those passes cost money.

However, considering the TSM previews so far have been cast-only, and those guests ARE coming in for free, obviously the only complainers about the ride so far are those not paying for entry. (Or are getting in through their generosity.)

Point is, repeat people are jaded. You can only experience a ride once for the first time. After that, you start comparing to prior visits, notice time taking its toll, and start showing how jaded you have become. You can claim to be "looking out for the magic" or whatever excuse helps you sleep at night after critiicizing a darn fine effort by the Imagineers to give the park something new (as they should be doing), but at the end many of you just sound petty and unable to be happy with ANYTHING the company does. Makes me wonder why you go back at all, as misery seems to follow you everywhere when you go.

Heh. John Wayne. Way to shoot from the hip there, Tex.

Pickstar: "I remember a time when WDI always shot for the stars and didn't worry about whether people noticed or not. I don't like this new attitude that says, "We're just doing enough to please the once-in-a-lifetime guests and screw everybody else.""

I didn't get that impression at all. I think they are tired of all these so-called "fans" pointing out every flaw in a public manner, so that people never get to go in with an open mind because the internet has already pointed out every flaw and blemish in a ride that isn't even open to the public yet. These things DO leak out to the press and the "casual" parkgoer through word of mouth or whatever, and I would hate to think that something I'd planned, developed, built, etc for months and was pretty proud of was being nay-sayed publicly before it even got a chance to really open its doors. Kind of like calling one's baby ugly based on the ultrasound. Not kind, and really doesn't get anywhere.

You guys say what you want. I'm glad the imagineers are blowing people like some of you off. Everyone says the earlier stuff is the good stuff and it was done without the "Help" the internet provides the imagineers.  Time to look to the past as we move into the present. Follow your guts and ignore the rest, Imagineers!

I work in an family entertainment company, albeit a much smaller one than Disney. And as much as people here (Pickstar) might not like to here it, you DO GET IN FOR FREE! You spend your money on your AP, and in just a few visits it's paid for. The company then loses money on you each time you visit. The annual members at my business are the first to complain about price increases, the first to notice anything not working properly, and the LAST to spend any money in our business so that we can afford to fix anything or build something new.

Therefore, as a staff, we have a love-hate relationship with our members. We love the fact they care enough to bring their families once a week to spend an entire day with us, but we hate the fact we are struggling to pay the bills while all they do is complain that nothing has been updated in a year. And we're a small, non-profit company with no shareholders breathing down our neck.

Think of the love-hate relationship a company like Disney has with their AP/online fans.....

Priesman said:

"I work in an family entertainment company, albeit a much smaller one than Disney. And as much as people here (Pickstar) might not like to here it, you DO GET IN FOR FREE! You spend your money on your AP, and in just a few visits it's paid for."

Well first of all, your characterization that I "get in for free" is just completely and totally WRONG. Is my per visit cost lower than that of a guest who buys a MYW pass? Perhaps ... is it free? Uh, no. If I pay money for it ... any amount of money ... it is by very definition not "free."

Secondly, any idiot knows that theme parks don't rely on admission costs for profits. Admission pays to keep the lights on MAYBE. The real revenue comes from food and merch sales and that has a direct relationship to the number of times you visit.

So if anyone is trying to claim that a guy with an AP who visits the park for 30 days out of the year isn't dumping more PROFITS into Disney's coffers than a guy who takes his whole family for a once in a life lifetime 8 day trip then they either have a fundamentally broken view of how a theme park generates profits OR ... they're a Disney apologist looking to make excuses to justify bad behavior.

I'm pretty sure I know which one it is.

Priesman> Several visits and my AP pays for itself, but each visit I'm spending money in the park. Now, I know not everyone does that. I've seen people bring outside food, from a Subway sandwich to a couple Vons bags.

I understand why these complaints are frustrating. People work hard on these attractions, sometimes with less resources than desired, and frankly I do have concerns as a stockholder that widespread internet complaints are all too accessible to the casual visitors. Miceage isn't a site most casual visitors are aware of, but when it's a resource of the LATimes staff, its content becomes more of a liability.

On the other hand, these are still customers... Still going to the park... And obviously highly passionate. By stewing over things, I think they just become even bigger fans. But the criticism comes from their passion for all things Disney, but it's not blind or fawning.

The Imagineer has several valid points. I'm a purist in the sense that I expect high quality from Disney and when I've seen lightbulbs out, painted rubbed off in places, those are the little things that I expect that Disney would have replaced and cleaned up quickly. That used to be the major complaint of people on the forums online, but over the last several years, these rabid fans have lost almost all sanity.

My wife and I lived in Orlando for six years, and let me tell you, once you start going to WDW on a fairly regular basis, it loses much of what makes it special and you can easily begin to nitpick. I see this on WDWMagic on a regular basis. Certain people post up these photo updates and moan about everything.

My last straw personally was the redo of Spaceship Earth. I thought it looked terrific online, people were pitching a fit like a small child, then we went down two months ago to Epcot, and loved it! It pretty standard fare that when you get people together who have a common interest, it usually descends into not how much they enjoy something, but rather, what's wrong with it. Pick the topic, it seems to always go the negative.

I posted about how the new Spaceship Earth looked terrific and was just screamed at by mouse ears computer geeks. That's the last time I ever post on certain sites when I'm going to get yelled at by illogical fanboys.

There is a big disconnect here between legitimate complaints and idiotic whining. Since the fan base seems to be focused on complaining about everything, even things that are good, how the heck can we expect the company or WDI to listen?

Firstly, I think the characterisation of "all online fans" as negative needs some perspective - there's a vocal minority in all things, and those who complain about EVERYTHING are the vocal minority.

Secondly, one-in-a-lifetime holidaymaker vs regular: it's about balance. There's nothing wrong with updating rides, bringing in new rides etc, but some balance is required. There's nothing wrong with leaving certain things in place to satisfy and reward loyal regular visitors (I dread to bring up the word Imagination as an example).  

Finally, as has been said, the criticisms come from people who care enough to be passionate.

The comment from the Imagineer is typical of an organization in denial that is having trouble meeting customer expectations.  Happens all the time.  Great organizations never blame the customer and instead look for ways to change their process and make things work.

If the comment is representative of the general feeling within WDI, then WDI is truly finished as a creative force.  If this was just one bad apple then perhaps the right management and direction and turn things back around.

One other comment... the Imagineer might want to shift his blame to other internal departments.  Disney has long been doing things to encourage more frequent visits.  DVC, APs, Pin trading, etc.

I'm not saying that's a bad strategy necessarily, but you can't have it both ways.  If you want frequent visitors then you have to deal with the expectations that come along with that.  You can't just rake in the revenue and ignore the baggage it comes with.

AlphaC and Graham,

Thank you for adding some sanity and perspective to the conversation.  You'd swear that some of these people take it personally when Disney does something differently from what the want. I think Englishboy hit it on the head waaaay up there at the top: This is a C-ticket attraction. A shooting gallery, plussed about as far as the tech will let it go and still be a fun, family, non-violent activity.  

This used to be why people went to Disney. Not to find the flaws and throw the magnifying glass of the internet onto them, shouting to the hilltops how incensed they are that something didn't meet the exacting standards of the so-called Disneyphiles.

My FAVORITE is the people who think this ride is OK, and dare I say, fun, are Disney apologists.  No, we just aren't Disney crucifiers. Saying you post this stuff because you care is similar to the parent who beats their kid to "teach them a lesson. Like, for example, 'don't spill the milk again.'"  

"OR ... they're a Disney apologist looking to make excuses to justify bad behavior."

Yes. Thank heavens folks like you are here to spank their naughty little corporate bottoms. Clearly the record-setting years indicate just how big a problem they have on their hands.   Pickstar, maybe you missed it in the posting above yours, but when you say: "Secondly, any idiot knows that theme parks don't rely on admission costs for profits." Well, bravo. You just insulted someone who works in the business AND made it clear you don't understand a key point of the AP/Cast visitors. They may come more often, they are MUCH less likely to buy all their meals and buy souvenirs compared to the long-distance visitor, and that's a fact. They come in after breakfast, stay until dinnertime, and eat at home or somewhere cheaper outside the parks. Not all of them, sure, but a fair amount. Certainly a MUCH higher percentage than the resort guests.  

So, yes, to admission is not a profit driver (although they do make a TON of money, don't be naive.) No to APs being more important in the profit scheme than the long-distance tourist.  By the way, Disneyland is much more locals driven. Orlando's size doesn't provide enough regular locals to support the parks the way Disneyland's does. But I'm sure you already knew that.

So, finally, to address your REAL point, which is that you as an annual passholder dump a lot more profits into Disney's coffers than a single visit/long distance traveller... well, that's possibly true on an annual basis, on a family-to-family comparison, but it's not what we are comparing.  What Disney has to look at is how many of these single trippers are in the parks on a given day, and for how much of the day, compared to APers.  The former group outnumbers and outspends the APers/cast visitors by a sizable margin, at least here in Orlando. And, if they outspend on a day-to-day basis, it stands to reason that annually, those single visit guests outspend the locals as well, except for perhaps some of the extremes.

I think you probably count as an extreme for any number of reasons, but to look at the more reasonable big picture, that's the reality. As I'm sure any idiot knows, right?...

Raidermatt ... great comments. I agree totally with both posts. I think you're right on the money.

It kills me how, when something is a little less than perfect in someone's eyes, the blame immediately falls on the creatives.  Have any of the complainers stopped to think about the fact that these guys are given a budget and a timeline by their superiors and they need to figure out how to do the best they possibly can within those guidelines?  

I don't blame the Imagineer in question at all for being defensive.  He and his fellow Imagineers probably spent the past 4 years pulling their hair out trying to create the best ride they could, coming up with new ways of doing things that no one had considered before, and working with untested technology, all the while having the number crunchers looming over them, demanding they constantly do more with less... finally creating something they could be even remotely proud of only to have the people they created it for crap all over it... I'd be defensive too.

What people don't get these days is the reason the rides in the American Disney parks aren't perfect is because they don't have the resources to make them perfect.  Save up your pennys, fly to Japan, and you'll see just how good the Imagineers really are when they are given the resources and support they need.  Otherwise, be glad what they create here is as good as it is... and remember that, just because they build it doesn't mean a) it was their idea and b) they have any say in how it will finally turn out, what gets cut to save money, and how it's marketed.

Re: The economics of AP's and whether you're getting in "free" etc. etc. etc.

Dear People: The point of selling AP's is just that--to GET PEOPLE TO COME IN "free" because they make more on them on food, shopping, bringing friends, spreading positive word-of-mouth, and all the ancillary reasons. This silly calculation of how many visits suddenly magically make your entry "free" based on the price of a single admission is an apples-to-oranges mis-mathematical fool's game. ALSO...upgrades and new attractions may be the reason why people RE-ENLIST in the AP program, instead of saying "Well, that was a great year, I went 8 times, and now I've had my fill." This is the same basis as ALL subscriptions in the universe---to magazines, season tickets for sports teams, memberships in museums and zoos, etc. etc. etc. The point is to (a) build "brand loyalty" and (b) bring people INTO the tent where their wallets can be sheared and (c) to sell them ancillary stuff--for example, put 'em on mailing lists to promote cruises, toys, memorabilia, identity credit cards, etc. etc. etc. at them and finally (d) to generate a mailing list that is VERY sell-able based on a very specific demographic and proven spending pattern. All of that MORE than makes up for the "admission deficit" that their "Free" visits constitute to the uninitiated or financially unsophisticated.

For that matter, having the cast-member previews isn't "free" either. They still have to pay other cast members to operate the attraction, but on the other hand, they're getting some "training" value out of it--not only on the ride itself, but by "training" the other CM's to know what it's about, talk about it, and suggest it to guests and generally build buzz about it. But anyone who in any way takes the HIGHLY jaded and HIGHLY narrow-demographic opinions of the CM's as a general public read on an attraction would be astoundingly foolish, and I doubt the Mouse is that warped in its marketing savvy.  Here's one glaring example but there are others: Since MOST CM's are young singles, they're hardly moms-and-dads-with-kids, the PRIME Disney Demo. They may THINK they know what those folks like, but it is a different thing to WATCH or READ about changing a diaper vs. actually DOING it on a daily basis, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.   Those of us who've been around for a while have seen the utter DISASTERS that have happened in Disney goodies that were created by NON-family folks who were "imagining" what THEY THOUGHT a family crowd wanted or was all about. And as I said, there are lots of other reasons why CM's (or for that matter, Disney "fanboygeeks" online) are UNrepresentative of the target market that actually makes up the bulk of WDW visitors and SPENDERS.

So get real, ok? Nothing is "Free" and nothing is "given away" unless it is to be a LOSS LEADER that gets other sales to ring the till.

One more point JMELROSE re the "value added" comment on AP's. Well, yeah...but:

Any visitor to WDW has literally only so many hours, days, or even weeks to experience it. The very nature of the place says that you literally cannot do it all on any given trip unless you're a full-time guest with no financial or time limitations. When a new attraction opens, yes, it draws people because of the publicity surrounding it, but when the lines get long, not EVERYbody who CAME to see Ride X will actually RIDE Ride X. Meanwhile, Rides Y, Z, and Q which would otherwise have been running at half capacity fill up. Its the same concept that gave birth to the multiplex movie house: What they'd ideally want is a 2,000 seat theater for the new "Iron Man" of the moment on its opening weekend--but the problem is that house (and its attendant share of the real estate, staffing, popcorn, etc. etc.) would sit half EMPTY or less most of the time otherwise. SO...they build 14 theaters in the same space, each with 100 or 200 or 400 seats, they put "Iron Man" in 5 of them on its opening, but even then when those sell out, people who've already come to the theater decide to see "Tinfoil Man" or whatever "B" picture is available. And they all share the staff, popcorn, and rent.  I once read a calculation in the not-that-long-ago-actually-viable record industry that said that a new Michael Jackson album was estimated to be good for an added $30-$50 per customer in OTHER sales of OTHER records because the one that dragged them into the store (remember record stores? THOSE were the days! Ho ho ho!) got 'em wandering the stacks and buying others.

SOoooooooooooooooooo....its not really like a free software upgrade at all. Its like a new menu item at the all-you-can-eat buffet. You still get full as fast, and the profit margin on you based on that reality still works for the restaurateur.

Ok... I have to throw my vote in on the side of the AP guests. It is the DVC and AP guests who spend the most. Yes on a GIVEN trip the family that saved up may spend more BUT they wont be back for 5 years, 10, never? AP will be back later that year. I live in TN and 2 years ago, when you add up the dates, spent a month in WDW. (I know not alot compared to some) So for 1 month I stayed on property, ate disney food, bought souvenirs each time (one a pin event so spent LOTS!), and bought others gifts. I family spending one week DID NOT spend more than my family. Also go to the high end disney stores.... alot of the big ticket items are going to regular visitors, they are disney fans and enjoy spending the income on disney art. A family of 4 coming for the first time is not likely to spend 1000 on a disney painting.

Point 2 the imageneer (a group I always speak highly of) complained that no one noticed the brick work.... Really???? DO you think that a first time visitor is going to pay attention to that? NO.... It is the enthusiast, the DVC member, the AP holder who studies Disney that will know this and care and say WOW Disney really plussed this ride. Disney has always stressed rerideability... this means you have to come back!

Point 3 As was pointed out earlier the AP holders are frequently asked about the park when friends are going. I get asked Im going to be there 2 days what should I do? Or I will be there a week where should I eat? I am sure we have all been asked these questions. I have my favorite answers that I share. I also warn about some things.... One being the stitch ride. So even when the AP guest isnt there often our opinions matter.

Let's see, I'm a WDW AP, but I only make one or two trips per year--usually 9-15 days although occasionally as short as 4 days. I spent $15K to buy into DVC. I usually go home with enough souvenirs to make me worried about baggage weights and alwys wonder if I'm going to get called in at Canada Customs since I'm over my duty free allotment for the trip. I eat mostly at table service restaurants and buy upgrades like tours, special Food and Wine Festival dinners, etc. And my opinion shouldn't count in favor of the once in a lifetime guest who stays at the All-Stars (or off-site), comes in for four days, eats nothing but hot dogs and popcorn?

Imagineers need to consider both guests. Obviously Disney values its return guests otherwise there would never be any need to update the parks, have special events, offer DDE, APs, DVC, change menus, or do any of those things needed to convince someone to come back. Frankly, if they were only looking for first time, one-time guests, you wouldn't need any imagineers. Disney generates a lot of money off returning guests and it's important to understand your audience.

Having said that, the audience does not primarily consist of those who whine about everything that Disney does. But there are occasionally some good points that show up on-line. DCA was a disaster and the on-line pundits got it right.  Disneyland's attendance really started to slide after years of neglect (as pointed out on-line) and really picked up after they started reinvesting in that park. AK was a half-day park until they started plussing it with Everest and the Jammin' Jungle Parade. Dinorama never has a line-up. Stitch's Escape seems to have fewer people lined up than the old Extraterrorestial Encounter.

On the otherhand, I love Epcot the theme park and couldn't care that Disney never managed to actually build Walt's city. I never got to see the Dreamfinder, so I don't mind the new Figment ride. I love the Nemo show even though I miss Tarzan. I rarely go on WDW's Small World (partly because of the accoustics) but I always try to go on SW in DL. If they add a few annimated characters I'll probably still go and still enjoy it. I actually like the Tiki Room Under New Management although I still enjoy the original. Everest is a fantastic ride even if the bird doesn't fly all the time, and the Yeti occasionally gets stuck.

Imagineers need to not close their eyes and ears to complaints, but need to be discerning in terms of which ones to listen to. Some complaints really are petty. Some reflect the imperfect state of a soft-opening. And some are real concerns that will lead to a ride (or an entire park) which operates at a fraction of its capacity year after year, effectively wasting Disney's capital budget and reducing revenues. And who should you listen to more? The guest that comes back once or twice a year, or the one who's on a "once in a lifetime trip" and will never come back because they've seen and done that? Ideally you'd like to convert the latter into the former.

I agree with this gentleman, I wish people would stop whining about WDI. They spend years working on these things, doing the best thing they can, and the supposed 'fans' show no respect for their work.

My point is, is that perhaps I am biased, due to the fact that I see everything WDI does as truly amazing, but nonetheless, it is.

This isn't so much about the one attraction, this is about the 'fans' bitching about years of work, the people that the Imagineers think they could trust to be enthusiastic, picking tiny faults without commenting on the good things. It's not constructive criticism, it's just plain rude!

Look over the comments made after riding the attraction:

"What with all of the noise coming off of the other game trams that are in this show building, it's just not an intimate experience. You're always aware that you're one of many rolling through this 3D shooting gallery. Trying to squeeze off as many shots as possible before you have to move on to the next flat screen."

"... with 'Toy Story Mania' ... You're just moving from one shooting gallery to the next. Which -- in the end -- is kind of an empty experience.

Sure, it was fun seeing that new 3D animation of the 'Toy Story' characters. And I liked a lot of the theming in the queue. But having ridden the thing twice now, I just don't feel the need to go on 'Toy Story Mania' again. Which makes me question this whole rerideability thing that the Imagineers keep talking about."

I don't know about you folks, but those are indeed valid concerns. And being honest, those are the kind of things that Imagineering is paid to address in the development of an attraction. That's just honest feedback, even if it is from a "foamer".

Marty Sklar tells a story of a show preview for Walt. As I recall, kind of an ultimate shooting gallery attraction. Lots of great technological things that no one had ever done before. Great things that had taken a lot of work and a lot of effort to make happen.

After the preview, Walt's comments were "That's all it does?"

If the bar is set high for Imagineering, it is because they set it there. And now, we as guests and "foamers", too, have come to hope that WDI will hit it out of the park on every attraction they produce. But let's be real, too. It has been a very long time since WDI came up with a really innovative, entertaining attraction that breaks completely new ground.

It isn't that we don't want these things to be a success. But we (and I do count myself among the "foamers" in a way) want that kind of moment that says this is something I won't find anywhere else but at Disney.

Ford used to say that "Quality was job 1." WDI needs to step up and do likewise. Retreads are still retreads, no matter how much they cost. And like it or not, this one is a retread. Just more bells and whistles.

I'm one of those less-thans (NOT an elitist annual pASS HOLder) that only visits a Disney park every 5 to 10 years.

I visit the many Disney websites to stay in touch, look at pics, and dream of the next time I can actually afford a Disney vacation.

And I have to say, one by one each of the websites I've looked at over the years has turned so negative, so anti-Disney, I have to wonder why you all bother to keep spending your money on their parks.

So I'm on the side of the Imagineers, because I get the sense that they will never ever please the pASS HOLders with their snobbery and false sense of entitlement.

Get over yourselves and start having fun again!!!

Acoustics? Intimate midway gaming experience? How many "intimate" midway games have you played anonymous WDW cast member? Every midway I've ever been to has been noisy, and yes you can hear the people playing games next to you.

If that's the worst criticism that can be leveled at this attraction, then it looks like Disney has a hit on its hands. Keep up the good work, guys.

I agree Yeti. It's a MIDWAY and people find it loud? Have they even been to a midway lately? Or is it too lowbrow for the Disney snob crowd and basically, it doesn't fit into what he/she would do, so the Imagineers have done a poor job.

Again... this isn't an E ticket attraction. While I don't want to say expectations should be lower, they should be REASONABLE.   This type of technology and it's not even a truly "top tier" ride, compared to RnRC or the Tower at the Studios.  

Um, what's all this b*tching about b*ithcing??!!  I think we all know what we are going to get here at this forum.  Some days we all unite, some days we all quivel over minute items and most days we have healthy debate.  Most days my "cranky pants" are just to comfortable (I miss Roger Colton many a day, but I remiss).

There is no harm in expressing our feelings.  No one loses their jobs at WDI or Pixar or wherever because we don't like something and then go and express it here.  The main stream media doesnt report our comments on the nightly news or in the morning paper.  And maybe 1 person in 1000 that you meet in the parks would even know about JHM (sorry Jim).  In other words I don't think that we are changing anyones opinion with our comments.  We all come here because we enjoy the Disney experience and we want to passionately share our views.  I read movie reviews and weather reports with a grain of salt.  In the end it's my choice if I decide to see a movie or bring my umbrella to work in the morning.  And it's my choice to express what I like and dislike about Disney.

I enjoy reading all of your comments and if you think that I'm wrong or of I think that you are wrong thats okay because there are others here that will share our view sooner or later.  If someone within the WDC doesnt like what we have to say then they shouldnt read our comments.  (Are they looking here for praise or are they looking to see if someone has noticed there shortcomings anyway?  Either way will eventually lead to their disappointment.)  It's nice to think that they will see our comments and then improve the quality of their work but I am not naive enough be believe that that is going to happen.

WOW!  What a debate!  

Here's a few geldings from my kruger jar.....

Foaming over the noise level is foaming over the wrong thing.  Foaming over Disney characters in Small World is foaming over the wrong thing.  (btw - I watched all the YouTube footage on the Hong Kong install of Small World and have no problems with the inclusion of Disney Characters into the "world's largest doll museum" - there is no real distraction to the show, at least in my humble view point....)  What needs to be foamed over (if we must foam at all) is why the Hades are shooting gallery games such a big point for a park that is based upon story driven adventures and experiences?  If we are to foam, then, why aren't we foaming over the point that Imagineering is having their hands tied by Budgeteering and non-visionary people who only see an immediate dollar sign return on an installation instead of the long term lastibility of an ageless story product? "Shoot-em-up" arcades and other such games will not hold a lasting quality for the public (as compared to an "Everest" or "Pirates" type installation) - which puts those "short-term returns" in the same coffers as such limited venues as "Who Wants To Be An American Idol Millionaire?" settings.  It's the quick and easy monetary fix that the bean counting fidgiteers force upon the story-telling genious that exists at Imagineering we should be creating the ruckus about, not the end product that the creative branch of the company is forced to turn out.  

Disney is going to take a hit when IOA opens with the Harry Potter extension.  Yet, Potter could have been Disney's build...had they wanted to roll the money into it.  In the same line of thinking, Spiderman at IOA could have been Disney's technology first...but, the Eisner regime felt it too large an investment to buy into.  Disney should be the leaders in the use of technology for story telling themed envrionmental adventures and entertainment.  The company we love has lost that due to a handful of corporate dollar sign worshippers who tend to control everything produced in the United States based upon their financial gain return.  If we are to foam on anything, then, we need to foam upon the stockholders at the annual meetings, and let them know where the reality stands.

We should unite and boycott and not go to the Disney parks in the United States in protest - and get everyone we know to stop spending the money there in order to get this message across...but, wait...

We all know that won't work.  Our small band of rugged individuals - be it here at Jim's site, at the other Disney fan based sites, at the various and sundry Disney fan conventions, are really too small a demographic audience to make that large of a difference.  And, even if we were able to manifest a small coup...the people that would really get hurt in the long run wouldn't be the Board of Directors our efforts would try to influence, it would be the cast members at the parks suffering more indiginities with each passing contract agreement,; it would be the creative stars at Imagineering who would be let go in order to save money for the corporate machine.

Disney is a machine anymore.  And, we cannot teach a machine anything.  A machine must learn it on it's own.  Only when the numbers no longer produce what the short term dreamers want will the attention return to the long term visionaries who make up the bulk of the creative talent at the studios and in Imagineering.  Midway Mania aside, take for example the entire re-working of California Adventure...the machine took several years to realize the fact that the "quick fix" for the income didn't result in what the budget boys wanted.  So, after 7 years of initial operation, DCA will get a needed overhaul to bring it up to speed for the next 20 - 30 years of operation.

The financial team has got to start thinking of multiple demographics when they budget for the parks.  Attractions and adventures must relate to all age groups across the board; attractions and adventures must be timeless in their telling and setting.  This is the key to the success of Tokyo DisneySea and the other investments of the OLC...they rolled the money into buying the best that could be developed for all ages and bring repeated world wide visitors to those parks and that resort.  Perhaps if the OLC were to roll the money into the state side Disney Resorts we would see the changes we desire to see and stop our foaming so liberally.  

But, it goes further than the theme park end of the Disney industry.  The studio has got to start being liberal in the production of new stories for new high end themed entertainments to be built upon.  The corporate has got to be more willing with the synergy linkage so that an attraction is ready to roll out immediately if a film is a hit, not waiting next to 20 years before actually building it (reference example - Little Mermaid Adventure in DCA).  

The company has got to create a stronger synergetic link between the storytellers of Imagineering and the storytellers of the studio.  Imagineering has many brilliant ideas for new lands and arenas of experiences, each rich with immersive backstory and characters.  The studio could be taking these ideas and developing new films and television series upon them...once again creating a "Disney Universe" that is structurally bonded with what we see as exciting tales on the large and small screen and then experience as physical immersive realities at the Disney Resorts in the USA and around the world.

There is much that can be done, and, much we could be foaming over to make serious change.  But, attacking an arm of the corporate entitiy that is only doing their job with what they are given to do it with is the wrong place for rabid raging at the mouth.

Okay, enough of that soapbox.  

Regarding the whole AP thing...

Now, I can't speak for the Imagineer.  I'm not him, I can't know exactly what he intended by "we're not out to please the annual passholders."

However, it seems to me like he's talking about a very specific group.

There are people who own annual passes.  These are the people who will probably be at WDW for enough time in a year where it is more economically viable to have an annual pass.  The annual pass, quite simply, is their admission ticket.

Then we have the Annual Passholders.  Their annual pass is not just an admission ticket, but a status symbol.  They are the ones who will use the fact that they are an Annual Passholder in any discussion or complaint.  I've seen it many times.  "I'm an Annual Passholder, and I expect blah blah blah blah blah."  This is where you find the nitpickers and the complainers, usually.  These are the people who will most often line up at Town Hall to file a complaint...and I can see why the Imagineer wouldn't want to cater specifically to the Annual Passholder.

I mean, just think about it.  Let's say you're eating at a restaurant, and a certain server makes the experience amazingly memorable.  Just does a great job.  People don't stand in line to make comments about someone who is doing something exceptional, but they will stand in line if somebody has done something awful or even mediocre.  

I can see how the Imagineer can get so frustrated.

For what it's worth (which probably isn't much) I tend to agree that the complaints about this attraction do seem nit-picky. My comments weren't intended to support that TSM is a disaster (in fact, I went out of my way to say I hadn't ridden it yet, although I will this weekend).

My only issue is with the attitude of this Imagineer. I hate to think this guy is representative of the overall attitude that pevades WDI these days, because it just isn't the right mindset for someone who's in a creative position at what is, arguably, the king of all creative media outlets.

Look if he wants to make the case that WDI could do a lot better given better budgets, more management support, more creative freedom, etc. and that people should not criticize WDI for doing the best they can under difficult circumstances ... THAT I could get behind.

But to basically imply that the opinions of loyal, repeat, BIG SPENDING guests don't matter as compared to those of people who visit once ... that's not only disappointing it's also stupid. Any moron knows that loyal, repeat visitors are any company's bread and butter.

And again I'll say that WDI should ALWAYS be shooting for the stars and damn whether the average guest notices or not. The very fact that people never noticed how hard WDI worked to create their illusions was one of the things that set Disney apart from other theme parks in the first place. You rode through Pirates of the Caribbean and you just accepted that you weren't in a big huge warehouse. You were crusing with a group of pirates somewhere in the Caribbean. Do you think people consciously absorb each and every little detail of that ride? Heck no ... it's just the way it all seamlessly integrates together. That's what they pick up on and that's what makes them love the ride.

All that said, I do agree that this is just a nice little C-Ticket addition to DHS and expectations should be commensurate with that understanding. It's not as if this is supposed to be the next Expedition Everest or anything.

I agree that some people complain too much, but something that struck me when reading Jim's article is the tone of the Imagineer.  

Most companies have people they can't please, that's just a fact of life.  But you don't make the mistake of dismissing them publicly or use phrases like "We get bitched at", "constant bitchfest", "always find things to complain about", or, worse of all "foamers" when describing your customers.  

That shows an utter lack of professionalism.  I don't care if the Imagineer was 'speaking off the record' (because I'm sure Disney wouldn't condone his saying stuff like that), you still should know better.  This guy is paid to represent Disney.  You don't knock ANY of your customer base.  You simply state that you value everyone's comments and leave it at that.  Then privately you take or leave people's comments.

If they really don't care what people are saying - good OR bad - then why are they so worked up?

Good comments, Anonymouse ... although I will say I think that distinction between annual passholders (of which I am) and Annual Passholders is a lot more noticeable at DisneyLAND than it is at Disney WORLD.

I find most (not all, but most) Disney World AP holders to be people that visit just enough times per year that an AP makes more sense than buying MYW passes every trip. I don't know that WDW has quite as many nutty ANNUAL PASSHOLDERS as Disneyland does.

Truth be told, I think the APholder thing is overstated anyway. I think there's a lot of people who remember what Disney used to be, look at what it is today, and don't like the difference. Whether it's necessary because of changing times, differing opinions, or whatever ... they're entitled to their opinions, just like Disney is entitled not to listen to them. That's a choice any business is allowed to make. If Disney thinks their bread and butter is one-time guests, that's a legitimate business decision. They may be wrong, and if so they'll pay the price, but it's okay for them to act on it.

And it's also okay for ANYONE who buys a ticket, or a hotel room, or whatever to a Disney theme park to express their opinions, online or otherwise. Some people might like the "new" Disney and some people might not. That's just how it is. All the whining, on both sides, is a little silly. People have different expectations ... deal with it.

Good one, Skipperwest.

I'm a reformed former Foamer.  Used to partner with Al Lutz on MousePlanet - was one of the founders.  He loved my negative stuff, hated my positive stuff.  I thought because I'd seen all those bumpers in between shows on the Disney Channel and had all the back issues of Disney Magazine (Vacationland) that I knew a lot about Imagineering.  I think that's what a lot of these Foamers have fooled themselves into thinking as well - which, of course, is not the case - not even if you've read all the books or have stuff signed by Imagineers.

Most of you above who refer to yourselves as Foamers - um, no.  I know many of you, and there's a difference between pointing out a valid problem versus immediately running around in circles threatening to immolate one's self because whatever the people who know infinitely more than you about creating things for theme parks are creating doesn't fit up to your uninformed, imaginary standard of what someone dead, whom you never knew nor met, might have liked.   There's a huge difference.

One thing the Imagineers who worked closely with Walt would tell you - as a few of them have told me - is that you could NEVER second-guess what Walt was going to want nor like.  Never.  Woe to the person who got cocky because he or she was certain that what they were making was right up Walt's alley.  If people who knew and worked closely with him for years couldn't know, how on earth could you?  Or me?  Or some person whose life is so miserable, their only joy is knocking down something that they claim to love, on a constant and unending basis?  

I wrote about this earlier, on my site.  DISappointment Fatigue - the same people complain about every little thing, so when something that might be truly bad comes along, it just gets thrown into the same heap, drowned out by the endless cries of "WOLF!  WOLF!".  

My Imagineer friends are, often, deeply stung by this, but others are so used to it that they just don't take it seriously anymore.   It's just the complainers, complaining again.  Disneyland isn't going to be like it was to you when you were a kid.  Why? Because you're not one anymore.  Yeah, yeah, everyone's a child at Disneyland.  But you know what I mean.

Until you know what it is to work on a project, budget it, present it over and over to the suits to have it killed because the exec's teenage son doesn't like it, have some guy with an MBA making creative changes to the project you've sweated over for years, that's still gonna have your name on it as Producer even though your authority's been completely usurped, make sure all the rails and boarding areas are up to safety standards without the theming being completely trashed, make sure the group of blind nuns have as much of an entertainment experience as the people in the next jeep,  your dinosaur isn't vomiting sharp bits of metal at the inspectors, and then have the name changed to something that makes zero sense whatsoever, but they think the teens will like it - once you've been through that, then you can bitch and be taken seriously.  

Of course you have freedom of speech.  And the people listening have the right to not take you seriously if all you do is bitch.  Criticism isn't simply criticizing things.  It's looking at things with a critical - but NOT jaundiced - eye, noting what's right and what's wrong.  Balance is important.  

Speaking as someone who received email threats because I wrote that my daughter had fun at the playground at DCA - and those threats to her continued for TWO YEARS - I can honestly say that there are some truly unbalanced people out there.  

If you're going to complain about people at Imagineering, don't complain about the artists who make the magic.  They've got enough on their shoulders, watching their babies be butchered on a sickeningly-consistent basis.  You should be complaining about management.  

Look at Pixar.  Like WDI, full of creative, talented makers of magic.  It's not the artists.   So, please, balance your criticism, take a chill pill, and get informed.

YMMV.

Pickstar, I believe the phrase Nony is looking for is "Annual Passholders vs. Passholes".

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether you agree with it or not. That said, it must be remembered that this entire article is predicated on the singular opinions of two people: one of them a cast member, another an Imagineer. We are not privy to their levels within the hierarchy or anything else about them. Each has stated an opinion, but neither speaks for their respective organization, for all cast members, for all Imagineers, the strategies of the Disney promotions department, or the company at large.

Therefore, when the cast members says Toy Story Mania is noisy, fine. So was Mr. Toad. Point made. That does not make the attraction bad for everyone.

When the Imagineer says "we" don't do this for annual passholders but only for the once in a lifetime guests, he cannot possibly be speaking for the company, which has a number of programs to encourage repeat guests. No one in business wants a client to purchase once in a lifetime. True, these guests don't notice the flaws the way regulars do, but the regulars are important to any company's bottom line.

In defense of the Imagineer, every creative person who does his or her job properly invests their heart and soul into it, so when their work is criticized, especially before it's even officially open, it's going to hurt. Plus, people tend to complain more than they take the time to say nice things. Creative people as a rule only remember the bad reviews in a flood of praise. Ånd in these days of chats and blogs, it's easy to forget human feelings.

This is not some wishy-washy answer, but BOTH viewpoints are valid.

The theme parks need to cater to all types of Guest. They need to appeal to young, old, male , female, shareholder, annual passholder and the once-in-a-lifetime guest. Each type may expect a different type of experience than another making the whole venture more difficult.

WDI, however, should never make the excuse that it should only meet the needs of the once-in-a-lifetime guest because they are easier to please & more tolerant of issues like acoustical problems. That is like condoning that they need only apply the minimalist of standards for those guest less picky. Again, my opinion on the matter is that WDI should never allow an attraction open untill it is 100% ready.

I disagree with the preview period. Either the attraction is ready or it isn't. By allowing preview periods you are allowing comments; the good ones and the bad ones and you can't just accept the positive ones. If the common man is allowed to pass comment then so is the shareholder and the annual passholder who have given good dollar to be in those categories. What is the point of having those who have invested time and money (whether it is once a year or once evry five)  to be polled if you are not going to listen to the answers?

It is a difficult call perhaps, but all people involved want to see the Disney theme parks thrive and for the Imaineers to make the magic happen. It is a give and take situation not a pick and choose one.  

First, I'll start by saying I'm not an Imagineer, just so there is no confusion (wanted to be... never got the call).  I am, however a creative and someone who has to put up with similar things to what I'm sure the Imagineers have to deal with, on a daily basis.  

I think everyone needs to pause and take what the Imagineer in question said, in context.  I know I say a lot of dumb things, in the heat of the moment, when I'm stressed about finalizing a project and someone throws some insignificant complaint in my face.  I'm even more prone to said stupid comments when I'm talking to a friend.  

Now, granted, the Imagineer loses some serious clear thinking points for not realizing that if he says it to Jim, it'll probably end up in print, but I would be willing to bet that this was a case of a guy venting to his buddy after hearing just another in a long line of complaints from the growing number of people who have made it their life's goal to complain about anything and everything they come in contact with (and yes, there is a growing group of AP holders who are these people).  Believe me, I've had some choice words for customers, co-workers, and managers when I'm blowing off steam to my buddies.

I can tell you from experience, nothing is more annoying to a creative than to have someone who has absolutely no idea what it takes to accomplish what they have done, nitpick at it.  Remember, creatives are the work horses of an operation like this.  They are rarely the decision makers and never the people in charge.  They are just the ones who do all of the work, get little to no credit, and all the blame if it fails.

Bows to fabshelly.  Speak the truth sister.

While I do agree that online communities are overly negative, the sound issue brings up a common practice in the theater. Let's not forget that Disneyland and Disney parks operate like a theater. All trough a show, and especially during dress rehearsals (aka previews) the directors give "notes" about what needs to be improved. Very rarely do you hear notes about things you're getting right. For anyone outside the theater it's a weird concept, but it's the most efficiant way to get things done and done better. He needs to understand that of the trillions of things people could be comnplaining about people only have trouble with the sound...that's pretty good.

Yes, but that's the Director, Madge, not the audience.

So basically this is all coming down to the tone of people's posts. Constructive criticism vs. unnecessary complaining.   Some people type in a more respectful manner, and others verge on the end of aggressive and possibly mean.  And there is a whole range of tones inbetween these two extreems.

This goes for everyone, not just "fanboys".

DrummerMan said:

"Bows to fabshelly.  Speak the truth sister."

Ditto ... awesome posts, Shelly. Awesome.

I also agree with BalooJ ... both sides of this argument have some points with merit.

Thanks.  Now, I'm going to try to actually put it into practice.  Going back to CA and the whole Disney thing after five happy years away from it.  Fabrocks.com will go up at the end of June, if all goes well.  

Ah, the ol' debate on which is more important: The guest that comes more than once, and/or often expecting a certain standard and excellence, or the average vacationers that saved up the money to afford a once in a year or a while kind of opportunity during a holiday or break.

Hmm, tough tough tough decision. In an imagineer perspective, they must be freaking out. I guess it is expected that they choose the latter since its more profitable and a safe choice to appeal to the mass majority that visit their parks. I think though, that the annual passholders that do expect a lot out of Disney to not be ignored completely as they are now according to Jim.

For this complex situation, WDI should really find a middle ground and listen and acknowledge the complaints and criticisms. The difficult part is to see whether it is a big deal to the general public or not, or whether their criticisms are based out of simple observation and voicing of an opinion on a specific attraction.

I think "minor" issues such as acoustics are still valid because these people were expecting a high quality attraction. I never rode it, so I cannot rightfully make a judgment but for the ones who actually previewed it and more than once, they obviously do care about what goes on at WDI. Sure, there are many foamers who think they have the authority to criticize unfairly or without much thinking, and is unavoidable, but to completely ignore all the criticisms altogether makes me frightened. The fact that there are websites like MiceChat, JimHill, etc. that WDI did listen to, made us Disney Park fans like we had a say and a voice that was heard. I applaud WDI for trying and dealing with all the annoying people's remarks, but isn't that part of the job? You have to deal with these idiots, in order to hear all the many valid concerns and comments. Any who, I still can understand that this is a tough situation on the business aspect of WDI, but again, they shouldn't consider the extreme move of ignoring all the comments.

The Golden Age Imagineers never had to deal with those idiots.  The Silver Age ones, only in the second half of their careers.  

I think it would be best if the sharp pencil people AND the Foamers were both ignored in the scope of the creative process.  Yes, myself included.

There are still creatives that know instinctively what people will like, despite what their managers say - I'd give you a shining example, but can't, sorry.  It's something that was put together on a whim for a WDI Open House and ended up delighting the hell out of millions of park-goers.   If the sharp pencil people and armchair Imagineers would simply get the hell out of the way, we'd see a second Golden Age.   The talent is there (much of it would have to be called BACK to WDI, of course.)

Well well...

Let me start by bowing to fabshelley and JohnWayne for having some of the best posts on this thread.

I'll also reiterate that I've heard nothing but good things from CM's who rode TSM so far and that the positive comments continued throughout today while I was at

work.  Speaking of work...

It's always fun to come home after standing on my feet for eight hours working for the mouse on a shift in which my fi