Downtown Disney VP Kevin Lansberry is definitely the winner of the "I Wanna Be The Next Paul Pressler" Award.  

This whole thing is about money.  Study Lansberry's background. Marketing and finance.  Not one iota about park or park entertainment operations.

The plan, as it had first been bantered about, was to retain Adventurer's Club, Comedy Warehouse, and, one dance club establishment.  Everything else was going to go bye-bye and the district once known as Pleasure Island was going to be melded into Downtown Disney, forming a seamless walk from east to west.  

Adventurer's Club and the Comedy Warehouse were/are the two prime money making establishments in the PI section of DTD.  Even if a Tuesday night was slow at Comedy Warehouse, the chances that people were hanging at the Adventurer's Club is rather good.  There isa great deal of crossover in the demographic that would go to those two clubs.  Sadly, the audience draw to one club would also have been the same draw that would have frequented the other club as well...busier nights saw more traffic between the two establishments.  Slower nights had the A.C. being a lounge in which the repeat customers (which is what the DTD/PI thrived upon in off season at WDW) would go and enjoy the friendship of the other AC enthusiasts.  The A.C. has a design to it that is fitted for relaxing and chatting whereas the Comedy Warehouse is a Comedy Club and does not have the extended lounge bar and side sitting rooms that make for a more social gathering environment.

Ah.  The "Night Kingdom back pedal" finally arrived.  One can imagine that the rumor mills inside the Disney Company spoke too early for this and now the reality has reared an ugly reality head in the midst of everything else. At any rate, that shoe was placed for dropping.

Will the petition do any good?  Probably not.  There isn't a wide enough base of repeat clientele or guest awareness of the A.C. to really give the figures needed to make an impact upon Disney Budgeteers the way the California enclave did with the intial saving throw for Mr. Lincoln several years ago.  And, even if the company does feel a slight pinch from guests getting refunds on their AP inclusive passes or on the PI passes, it won't be enough to really make them feel the hurt enough to  warrant looking at saving the A.C. from the current disaster. (Also, I don't think there are many guests who are A.C. enthusiasts who are going to take WDW up on their offer for the ability to play a round of golf on a 9 hole green at the resort.)

Out of the entire PI experience, however, it is good to note that the support response the  A.C. is getting speaks loudly for a show that has run 19 years.  Outside of the Hoo-Doo over at Wilderness Lodge Campground area there has not been a show that has run that long at the WDW Resort.  (California can still hold a record with the original Golden Horseshoe Revue, but, that's another story.)

It breaks my heart to see the A.C. go away.  And, practicality tells me I won't be able to afford a short-notice trip to Orlando to spend a last two or three nights with the cast and wall companions of the Adventurers Club.  I can only hope that Jeff Lange will get over there and do a second DVD on the club that has a complete and definitive documentation of everything in the establishment...the shows, the props, the decorations....at least there would be good archival footage for us to enjoy after September of this year.

It's sad to think that those of us who held the A.C. as an integral part of our trip to WDW and now will be cutting our visits shorter in duration and further apart in time will only be a small drop in the bucket of the overall guest numbers that travel to the WDW Resort.  I know that my trips to WDW(which usually ran 6 - 7 nights on property...with about 5 of those nights being spent in the comfort of the A.C.) will now be much further apart than the annual (next to yearly) pilgrimage to the "world's biggest human trap built by a mouse."

Did Pleasure Island have to lose?  Yes.  The overall emphasis and motivation behind it went out of vogue years ago.  Universal's City Walk managed to hook the contracts with the clubs that the hoi polloi of the trendy generation will be going to.  Did Disney HAVE to destroy and close all of the venues in the middle segment of the DTD story?  Not at all.  The A.C. and the Comedy Warehouse easily could have remained.  Quite obviously the Planet Hollyweird golfball is going to remain.  And, that restaurant/bar has had equivalent low number counts of guests attending it as well.  So, the decision to raze the entire complex is solely that of a bean counter in his college educated, book learned view of how to better make money. Why, he could be side by side with Paul Pressler (who must be this nimrod's personal inspiration hero) working at the GAP - where his type of business acumen would suit that aspect of the industry quite well.  That type of "larnin" does not work within the themed entertainment industry environment.

If nothing else, the A.C. should be retained and rebuilt.  It could go into an area at the Animal Kingdom Lodge.  That poor little corner of the World Resort that is now building the most amazing DVC extension would seriously draw an audience to their night-time activities if the A.C. were to be built there.  Sadly, the Animal Kingdom environment is just about the only location where the themed setting of the A.C. would tend to mesh easily enough and work.

On the subject matter of the DVC units - the one positive swing that may come from this that might give the bean counters a nudge of consideration is the number of people who bought their DVC memberships to have Saratoga Springs as their home property location at the WDW...so they could eaiser access the night life and entertainment district of DTD at Pleasure Island. Again, it probably won't be enough to get the "powers that be" get off their ceramic thrones to get a clue as to the worth and value of the A.C. (it is the one property at PI that has the unique setting and themed environment making it worthy of a Disney Park experience), but, it may be enough of a ripple in the pond to get some people thinking on how to rescue at least this one aspect of themed environment entertainment to again be used.

Kungaloosh.

Some days....you eat the bear. Some days...the bear eats you. But either way, always dress for the hunt.

So...no more "Horizons", "Adventurer's Club" and a zillion other truly magical places that the efficient folks in WDW management couldn't be bothered to find a way to save. No, no, no, don't MOVE it to, oh, say the Boardwalk or inside a hotel or some other nighttime place. Don't figure out a way to MAKE the clubs pay off because, hey, the fact that audiences really LIKE them obviously doesn't stimulate the financially-creative juices enough in the office suites at Team Disney.

No, no...just close it and forgeddaboudit. No biggie. We'll open another STORE, because, hey, the secret to increasing merch. sales is to sell MORE same-as-at-Wal-Mart-but-twice-as-pricey crapola, right? Right.

Or blame the price of gas! Yeah! That'll work! Or maybe--YES, I HAVE IT!

What killed The Adventurer's Club and Pleasure Island?

Global Warming of course!

Yeah! THAT'S the answer! Too bad we didn't think of this 8 years ago when we coulda blamed it on the Millenium Bug! After all, it used to be New Year's Eve every night there, too!

There isn't really a reason for Disney to be catering to adults without kids, they'll go to Disney World anyways. There isn't a place for College Program kids to go to and get fired anymore either, bet Disney is real sad about that too. I'm glad Pleasure Island's clubs are leaving, I didn't think they ever truly fit, I'd always rather have family friendly spots over adult only on property.

Wow.  This is just sickening.  While I understand that PI is kind of located in a weird place messing up the flow of traffic, I think that a total shut down is crazy!  Yes A.C. is a big draw, but what is not mentioned is Mannequin's.  Mannequin's is the only dance club of its kind in the area.  It's got a rotating dance floor which no one has anymore.  It is always packed just about every day of the week.  And the alcohol is always flowing so they are making a good amount there too.  The location of Mannequins makes it perfect to allow it to be kept right on the corner and make it have a cover charge.  I hope we haven't seen the death of one of the best dance clubs on the planet!

For the typical WDW guest, the changes in Pleasure Island will be meaningless. If I remember correctly, back may years ago, Disney didn't like not having the local folk spending money at Church Street Station and CityWalk. This was money that was not being captured by the Mouse.

The typical tourist didn't have much reason to go there. You couldn't bring 10 year old kids, and it was a pain to hop on the bus to get to the other side of DTD. On my last trip, we walked my kids through PI to get from Disney Quest to the WoD, and sepnt a great deal of time explaing to my kids what the reason was for a lot of the buildings. Telling kids in grade school about the purpose of bars and clubs makes you remember your younger days (and not want to think about the kids in a dozen years).

The AC was a lot of fun, as was Comedy Warehouse. However, PI feels like a vacant, low-rent area during the day that you want to stay away from, and not spend time walking around in. It's time is over.

I get the business reasons. I really do.

That being said, I'm going to miss the heck out of A.C. and The Comedy Warehouse.

DW and I spent  LOTS of time there, when we were DINKS at WDW.  We've gone less, now that we've become members of the stroller sect, but looked forward to the days when the kids were justa BIT older, and we could have an "adult night" out at AC and TCW again.  Looks like that won't happen....

As DVC members, with a 50 year commitment to WDW....well, we're not in this just for the kids.  DW and I will be travelling with our grand kids, some day, and will likely be travelling with OLDER kids, and by ourselves, for many years to come.  I LIKE the "adults only" offerings because it makes the resort much more "one stop shopping" for us.  I LIKED A.C. and TCW, because they were nice, on property offerings that were NOT the typical bars or dance clubs....

It's too bad the bean counters decided they had to raise the place and start from scratch.  I think they could have made AC and TCW "work" in the new setting....even if they needed to be moved or redesigned.  I don't think shuttering them is the best option, but....well....I'm not running the company, either.

I, like many of you, won't get back to AC or TCW before it closes.  I, like many of you, will be sad to see it go.  I, like many of you, will sign the petition, knowing it won't do much good.

Honestly, this article is all over the map. I don't even really understand what Jim's trying to say. I mean I absolutely refuse to believe that Disney is closing PI simply because people couldn't get over the fact that they didn't need to buy a ticket anymore. That's absurd.

Also ... love to see Jim backpedaling on the whole Night Kingdom sham. That entire thing was bogus. I confirmed that six ways from Sunday with friends in WDI. It was an amalgam of a few blue sky concepts floating around out there, but overall what Jim wrote about has never been discussed. So it's disingenuous to say they're, "revisiting the concept" because the concept never existed in the first place.

Maybe Downtown Disney can just become exactly Like City Walk! Lets just start calling DTD City Walk South!

-Brandon

How soon until I can visit wwwPickstarMedia.com?   You've got the sources and the jackball disposition to make you an internet STAR!  Sign me up for your RSS feed ASAP!

I don't see why they couldn't keep a couple clubs and just sell tickets at the door.  I have never been to the Adventuer's Club, but I know it has a huge following.  Disney can make Downtown Disney one continual shopping/ dining experience and still have this popular club there.

  Not that I am a rabid Pixar fan, I'm not, but I at least expected there to be an article this a.m. about Wall-E's apparently stellar performance at the box office.  According to USAToday Wall-E came in $10 million higher than expected at $62.5 million at the box office.  I had a read an article on JimHill months ago saying that the "fat" humans and bleak look would sink the film at the box office.

  However, critics are saying that the environmental message and futuristic outlook intrigues adults while kids enjoy Wall-E's adventure.  An animated feature for the whole family.  Supposedly, this is behind only the Incredibles and Nemo with 70.4 and 70.2 million respectively.  I think that Wall-E look-alikes are going to become a staple at Disney parks, and quite possibly the movie WILL make more in merchandising that Incredibles and maybe Nemo too.  (Anyone else think Wall-E will make an E-Ticket ride?)

  Eventually JimHill will have to post an article discusing Wall-E's enormous success, and eat some crow.  I read the Speed Racer's article and the title was very dramatic, making it look like Wall-E couldn't be sold commercially.  I guess maybe JimHill hasn't heard what an expensive dud Speed Racer turned out to be.  Regardless, Wall-E is going to be a cash-cow like Nemo, and is more marketable than 75% of Pixar's films.  

Pickstar,

I'm a little confused so please help me to understand.  You blast Jim's "sources" within WDW management every chance to get, implying that you don't believe that many of these sources exist outside of Jim's imagination....then you hit us with your "friends in WDI" without even giving us any quotes.  What have these "friends" told you?  

Also, if you are so convinced that Jim makes up so much of his information, why do you spend so much of your time reading it?

ChesireCat - I too was looking forward to a WALL-E article this morning... but got stuck with this article about a place that not too many people went to, basically avoided, and the majority of visitors to WDW would not care if it closed down.

So lemme get this straight:

An article is posted regarding the closing of a HUGE part of WDW that has drawn happy guests for YEARS and YEARS. IT explores the possible official and unofficial reasons why. IT laments the loss of entertainment value to guests. Fine.

And after a few of us deal with that, we get (a) kvetching about "Night Kingdom" stories from WEEKS and WEEKS ago, (b) carping about sources without any more offer of proof of your own sources, (c) a whine about why a whole story wasn't dedicated to a simple boxoffice dollar figure we could read on any website on the internet that, by the way, is totally irrelevant to this story--a basic "Why did you make "Snow White and The Seven Dwarfs" be about a girl named Snow and some DWARF! Why wasn't it about a boy named Coal Black and some GIANTS! Wahhhh!" kind of typical dumb JHM nonsense response, as usual, and (d) a whole little coterie of folks who basically are here to say they hate the joint and tell us why they don't like it (but not why they're still here if they have such longstanding whines about the neighborhood.)

I am not Jim Hill. I don't even KNOW Jim Hill except for this site and a couple of emails. Jim Hill isn't a friend of mine. But people? IF you really, really hate this place, its author, its sources, its content, and its entire focus so  very, very much.....WHY ARE YOU HERE WHINING THE SAME WHINES OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND, in the process......making yourselves look so astoundingly juvenile, silly, and downright DUMB?

I suggest introspection. And, maybe, now that the AC will no longer be using it, that we should co-opt a certain ditty to dedicate to you fools and twits. Maybe it would go something like this:

"Marching along you're JHMSitePests..."

"Sing off-key songs, you're JHMSitepests.."

"Always Down, North-south-east-or-west..,

"You fail all the intelligence teeeesssts...."

"JHMSitePests your nonsense is BEST!"

Screwsareloose!

(smile)

... but we used to go many times a year, and we live in Maryland.

We decided to take a break from WDW for a while and see other sites, but always had a warm spot for the Magic.  The only real reason we went to Downtown was PI, especially Comedy Warehouse and the Adventurer's Club.  It has been hard reading about the decline of Disney from afar, but we hoped it wasn't that bad.

Now we are going to have to try to work a September trip into our plans and strained budget.  We gotta say goodbye to our friends.  Such good, good times and such fun... we tried to get to PI multiple times a visit.  We will miss Otis Wren, Ms. Perkins, and company... and across the way the who what and warehouse gang at the CW.  Gotta answer that wall phone one more time.

An Adventurer's life is best...

Kungaloosh!

Everything has its time.  PI was wonderful and fun but it has been in decline for awhile.  The Adventurer's Club and the Comedy Club were still great but the rest of the experience was lacking.  Say good-bye to a fun time and hope a good replacement appears over time.

(Sigh) Oh, joy, just what DTD needs - more shops and restaurants.

I don't know what bugs me more - the fact that they're closing the two only really fun places to visit in DTD (CW and AC were the only places on the Downtown Disney Connecting Walkway - er, I mean Pleasure Island - I would ever visit), or how in the press release, they try to blame it all on the guests. "In response to Guest feedback", my foot. I'm sure that there were legions of guests saying "I hate these stupid nightclubs! Get rid of them and put in more shops with the same overpriced crap and Landry's-run 'dining experiences'."  

Anyone know where I can find the drink recipe for a Kungaloosh?  Godspeed, Adventurers Club and Comedy Warehouse- I'm going to miss you.  

ngredients:

2/3 bottle Blackberry Brandy

2/3 bottle White Rum (Castillo)

2/3 bottle Captain Morgan's spiced rum

128 ounces liquid strawberry daiquiri mix

128 ounces orange juice

1/2 gallon water

Preparation:

Put all in 5 gallon bucket and freeze

Yield: Enough for a good HOOPLA!

Just saw Wall*E...oh my heavens what a brilliant first 40 minutes...then, not so good. I'm really conflicted here. I saw many kids wandering around restlessly and some even sleeping on their parents lap. Seems like the days of "family" films from Pixar are a thing of the past. I understand that they need to move-on to more esoteric ideas, but, it just makes me sad. Wanna have some good 'ol Pixar fun, go see Kung Fu Panda!

Oh by the way---here's DisneyBusinessLogic 101 in a nutshell:

FIRST....we'll CLOSE DOWN over a HUNDRED of our "Disney Stores" because, well, the market for retail sales of Disney stuff is wayyyy off and the cost of running them is higher than the profit potential......

THEN....we'll CLOSE DOWN live entertainment venues that appeal to night-time guests at WDW because THOSE are POPULAR and replace them with....uh...yeah: MORE RETAIL STORES selling DISNEY stuff because...well....uh....

(and I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with ALL of these conclusions, just noting the juxtaposition within days of each other of their totally conflicting directions)

I, too, was expecting something about WALL*E today. While the story on Pleasure Island is interesting...the timing is a bit strange.

It seems as though Jim has been rather quiet about WALL*E this summer. And any article he posted had a slightly veiled insult for the little robot.  But I have refrained from commenting because, like JohnWayne suggests, if I don't like it, I don't have to come here.   And why should I spoil it for the rest of the viewers who love this site?

But my only problem with that argument is that JimHill is now a recognized and trusted authority on all things Disney.  So, these articles are not just his private ramblings that he scribbles in a diary kept hidden under his bed. They are published out here on the web.  He is regularly quoted and referenced by other blogs and by Big Media.  So, his messages (however accurate/fair they happen to be) can reach quite far.  These things can have a ripple effect, sending bad buzz and misinformation in all different directions.

So, as readers, don't we have a responsibility to challenge those statements that seem inaccurate or misleading ? Isn't it appropriate for us to speak up and discuss any bias that we perceive?

I am not a huge Pixar fan, myself. In fact, I've yet to see WALL*E yet (although that's because it hasnt been released here yet). But, regardless, I can appreciate the rotten deal they get from Jim from time to time.  In the past, he has painted some of their "moderate successes" as utter failures (Cars).  This time around, he is just completely ignoring their runaway success (WALL*E).

HAHA. Gotta love that Disney Logic 101!! :o)

Going to overpriced theme restaurants is something I can do at home. Going to movies is something I can do at home. Shopping is something I can do at home. Why would I fly across the country to do what I can do at home? I can go see Cirque du Soleil in Vegas (which is easier for me to get to, as I live on the West Coast).

For me, WDW becomes significantly less appealing if there's nothing to do at night. After a day at the parks, I don't want to then drag my exhausted kid to a loud theme restaurant and walk through stores where she'll want to buy things, touch everything and I'll be tense. I want to leave her with a babysitter and go out with my husband to do grown up things that are fun. What are we going to do now, go to Victoria and Albert's? Woo, that's a party!

Yeah, we might as well stay home or go to an actual resort, like Hawaii.

How is it "innaccurate or misleading" NOT to write about the box-office figures on Wall-E? By the way, WHILE I was composing my little songfest up above, my TV had Fox Business featuring a moviebiz pundit QUOTING the opening numbers on Wall-E, so they're  hardly a secret. Again, I'm not a Jimbot, but why, ESPECIALLY since this site IS influential, should he do the PREDICTABLE and easily-found-elsewhere story...EVER?

As for Wall-E being a 'runaway success'....that's just plain not so or evident yet. In the movie biz (where, to remind for context's sake, I labor and have for my entire adult career/life) we talk about a film having "Legs"--i.e., not just a big opening, but a LASTING run at the box office. These days, with intense summertime competition and the pressures of screen space for 1,000-2,000-screen opening dates, that is a harder and harder factor to achieve.

So....we'll see if it is indeed a "runaway" but all we can say so far is that it had a very strong opening indeed.

Well....lets suppose tomorrow a journalist comes along and wants to write an article about the Pixar acquistion.  So he stops over to JimHillMedia, does a quick search for "Pixar", and pulls up all of Jim's many, many articles about Cars and Ratatouille which dissect the box-office numbers, adjusting for inflation and comparing per/screen averages etc. so that the figures can finally show that Pixar's rate of return for Disney is in a steady decline.  Along with these articles, the journalist can also read...well...3 or 4 articles about WALL*E.

If you look at at Jim's coverage of Pixar as a whole, you can see how his "sin of omission" regarding WALL*E could be perceived as misleading.  Well, thats how I see it at least.  Of course, one would hope further research would be done beyond JHM before going to press...but, we know that's not often the case.  

In any event, I think I just called Jim a sinner, which means I need to sign out of this website and do something productive.

It's easy to forget, given how much it means to all of us, that the Disney empire is a business, and some decisions need to be made based on dollars and cents.  If PI was turning a hugh profit then it would remain open no matter how much it disrupted the walk through DTD.  The bottom line is the bottom line....as many people as there are who love PI, there just aren't enough to sustain it as a business, so it has to close.  In the big big picture, do we really want Disney to keep money-losing operations open just to satisfy a vocal minority and drain resourses from other projects?  If they did that then nothing would ever be closed or re-themed.  As a fan, I'd rather they get rid of what loses money and put the savings into new attractions.  Someone is always going to complain when change is proposed but if there were that many people who liked PI that much, it would be turning a profit and, hence, not closing.

Conventional wisdom at the time Pleasure Island opened was that it was a foil for the Church Street Station venue in downtown Orlando that was drawing guests off Disney property at night. If so, it succeeded, as Church Street crashed and burned years ago.  Perhaps WDW doesn't see City Walk as a direct competitor, or they're willing to leave to them the rowdy local element that's become an increasing nuisance at PI.

Aye4 - it isn't so much the closing of PI that people are bemoaning, it is the closing of the two clubs that actually were turning profit margin and drawing constant repeat guest attendance numbers.  As John Wayne would put it, "They have legs." ;)  The two clubs that are in question, the Adventurers Club and the Comedy Warehouse, could easily be retained and the new "Downtown Disney Entertainment, Dining, Shopping" connector could very easily be built around them.  And, if they had to close one of the two, then, I would imagine that the majority of the folks who are pressing for the salvation of these two clubs would readily vote to retain the Adventurers Club.  It isn't PI, it's the A.C. that is being focused on in the effort not to have this one venue taken away...with the Comedy Warehouse being a close second. and since we are heading off in other directions, WALL*E blew me away.  Great film.

Spelling error in my last post.  I meant "huge" not "hugh"

I think replacing Pleasure Island takes away from a great deal of the Downtown Disney Experience; instead of 3 separate entities, they'll all be merging into a singular blob of shops and restaurants.  I agree heartily with those tho argued that Adventurer's Club and Comedy Warehouse would blend in with any new theming, as they're not raunchy and boozy enough, as the clubs were, to set it apart for the specifically "adult" crowd.  I'm still.... utterly disappointed by the Eisner leftovers: it's been making the WDW experience a bit more bland, from their ride "imports" [making all of the parks indistinguishable from each other, minus location], increase of stores [selling exactly the same thing, and reinforcing the stereotype that Disney is just out to take your money], and generally making everything seem dumbed-down for the general audience.

Me?  I was always too young to visit A.C. and C.W., and my most recently trip [Sept. 2007] was the first time I really got to experience them - I'm very sad that it will be my only.

As for WALL-E, it <i>could</i> just be that he's working on a larger story, or that he really just doesn't have anything to say right now.  If we're going to be nit-picky, I'd like to throw in the point that, about a year ago, he put in an article about how Pixar films and output will be much more under wraps.  Hense, less Ratatoulie and WALL-E articles.  I'm all for bringing up alternate points of view, but there is a stark difference between "constructive criticism" and "bitching".

On that tangent, I would like to whine on a <i>different</i> Disney aspect: the fan community.  I do wish the Suits up at Disney would give the forums and website another looks, as there are some genuinely good points behind the whining.  I look at the community as the same was as I do PETA newsletters: great content, but over-the-top, forceful persecution.  Read between the lines, and you get some great information.  The Guest Feedback surveys are worded to get the response they want, and most of them are not in depth or free-form enough to get anything genuine out of them.  The fan community, diverse in its opinions, consists of many repeat customers and a variety of viewpoints, making it a great jumping point for Suit discussions... to exclude us completely is asking for more ignorance and overall "blandness".  After all, we don't give multiple-choice, specifically worded responses: we give real opinions.

......but I'll still really miss A.C. I want more to do after park closing than shop!

Kungaloosh.

Yes, Disney is a business. Yes, it is about profits and losses. But the idea that any attraction or venue can "sustain itself" w/o publicity, nurture, and corporate endorsement is just plain untrue. When you have a couple of venues within a larger complex (A.C., C.W. and maybe even Mannekins) that are drawing happy crowds and, most importantly, REPEAT business night after night of a stay and stay after stay of visiting fans, then there is a base to build on that is not only viable and worth working with rather than junking it...it is a base that is CHEAPER in dollars and cents to make thrive than any brand new project. It is a basic axiom of all business that RETAINING a CURRENT customer is a much more economically viable proposition than CREATING a NEW customer. Add in the "word of mouth" that happy people give to good things they enjoy, and you have the basis on which to build a successful promotional campaign.

So...if you are given an area with, oh let's say 20 or 25 different "things" in it--shops, clubs, restaurants, vendor carts, whatever (and I'm just guessing on the number from the peak of PI's heyday) and you find that a couple or three or four are really really popular and you want to do something "new" and "improved" in a down-market period re. retail in general and in an overall atmosphere (WDW at large) that is not only chock full of retail and dining already but that has a very HIGH cost of promtion for NEW items because literally everything has to be rewritten (maps, guides, websites etc. etc.) when you change something.....well?

It does NOT take a Masters in Business Administration to know that you KEEP THE GOOD and VIABLE and promote the heck out of them even WHILE renovating/renewing/changing the surrounding less-than-booming venues--heck, you use the strong ones as "tent poles" the way TV networks used to build a whole "Must See TV" Night around "Cheers" or "Seinfeld" or "ER" or "Frasier" or "Family Matters" or other hits--putting the new stuff that was UNknown in between the POPULAR stuff that was KNOWN and LOVED.

The fact that the "brain trust" at Disney thinks it is better to just dump stuff and rip stuff and give up and not only LOSE the "head start" on drawing more money-spending patrons to the new area that the succesful PI clubs would give them but ALSO engender the NEGATIVE vibes from all those REGULAR and REPEAT guests who make up the backbone of their clientel.....is just plain dumb. Period.

But things don't just sink-or-swim-----they take WORK to create, introduce, promote, bring to success, and to sustain. When you STOP doing those things or FORGET to do those things or IGNORE doing those things...you're asking for a flopola.  So is it so outrageously unusual to predict that the same minds that IGNORED all this basic marketing/business 101 reality in their decision to DUMP PI's popular attractions will ALSO do a BAD JOB of promoting/creating their replacements?

Looks like the competition for fireworks at the parks or an earlier night's sleep (both of which, at least in DIRECT revenue creation, are ZERO moneymakers for Disney--yes, I know you stay later and buy a coke or another souvenir sometimes as a PERIPHERAL revenue generator) are going to be taking the place of PI in the agendas of me, my friends and family, and many of you on our next WDW trips after September. That's about less magic any way you look at it--for US in our EXPERIENCE of WDW...and for Disney in WDW's revenue generation, too.

P.S.--IF I were one of those amazing Adventurer's Club cast members who've brought magical characters to life with inspiration and verve and I was told "hey, might wanna audition to be a judge at the new American Idol thingie there, Otis!" I would simply say "Thanks, but no thanks." and go share my talent with a more appreciative audience...and employer...somewhere else.

As a DTD cast member in a position to know a lot and who has met many of the suits involved here I feel I can offer at least a little perspective.  Take what I say with a grain of salt as it's partially based on rumor and appearances but it's some food for thought:

1)  Let me say for the record that I consider Kevin Lansberry to be one of the better suits at WDW.  Yes, this decision is unpopular and hurts but there are times when you are forced to make tough decisions and someone has to take the blame.  I don't know all of the circumstances but I have met Kevin on several occasions and he always come off as genuine, intelligent, and concerned with the guest experience.  Given some of the numbers I've seen and some of the fights I've witnessed just at WOD I'd say you might be going after the very people who have been fighting to keep the AC open.

2) This isn't just about Pleasure Island, it's also about the West Side.  Just for an example, last fiscal year the DTD marketplace (inculding WOD) was the second highest grossing merchandise area for WDW behind Magic Kingdom.  The West Side wasn't even half as successful.  Upper management looks at that and concludes that the full potential of DTD is not being met.  Disney has been fighting to keep stores from LEAVING the West Side!  We've already seen reports this year about Virgin Mega Store possibly leaving along with La Nouba.  Disney has to find ways to increase the sales at the West Side to match up with the Marketplace or the whole thing will fall apart.  Why do you think the icon is going there?

3) What Jim said about guest traffic is true.  It addition to that is the issue of age restrictions at PI.  Yes I know you all love PI for being adult friendly but one of the top complaints we get in the Marketplace is from guests with children who can't do anything at PI.  Yes I know the age restriction doesn't begin until the late evening, but in other countries and the West Coast those kids wouldn't be in bed for several more hours!  Therefore, guests feel more comfortable staying on the side of DTD they're already on and frankly only one side has the Disney merchandise they're really looking for.  Great for us, but not really helping Virgin Megastore.  The other note to that is the un-attractive element that PI is attracting also alienates guests and even PI cast members I've talked to agree it has to stop.

4) Chances are we haven't heard the last of the Adventurer's Club.  DTD suits love the place and the numbers there don't lie.  More likely it's going to wind up someplace else but I doubt it's really "dead".  The reasons I'm hearing are two-fold: partially because it wouldn't fit the theming of the "new" Pleasure Island and partially because they were forced to cut the cord to everything in PI either to satisfy potential new operating partners or suits who wanted to avoid guest confusion with only a couple of clubs open.  This is mostly grapevine talk from certain managers but some of them are in a position to know more.

5) I know this all hurts right now but remember that this was not decided without blood, sweat, and tears.  Many of the people some here would accuse are the ones who hate the decision the most.  A lot of managers are still reeling from it because it means nothing is safe.  One of the things I've learned the hard way as a CM is that EVERYBODY has a boss they have to answer to who can sometimes be even more unreasonable then they are.  Even Bob Iger has to face shareholders who essentially had Eisner removed after consistent record profits...

I can understand taking the business aspect point of view, but it doesn't make good business sense.  It's been better and more eloquently expressed above me, so I'm not going to bother, but wanted to agree that we're not just being rabid fans angry for no reason.  I can consider the other side, and I think they're wrong, not just from an emotional place but from a fiscal perspective.  John Wayne's last point is spot on in this regard.  I particularly wanted to argue with one comment though...

Ayefour said: In the big big picture, do we really want Disney to keep money-losing operations open just to satisfy a vocal minority and drain resourses from other projects?

I can understand that you're talking about the whole of PI, and while it's probably not a huge moneymaker I don't think it's a black hole sucking money away from all the amazing things Disney could be doing.  The reason that we haven't been getting amazing new rides is not that resources are going somewhere else, it's that they don't want to spend money on developing new ideas when they think we'll be satisfied with a Hanes t-shirt shop.  That's what's bothersome about this decision: a stellar lack of creativity.  The only reason I went to DTD was to go to the AC.  Why go over there to shop when the same mass-produced crap is available at 20 other stores spread throughout the parks?  My two cents.

Also, though dance clubs are not particularly my taste, it's a lot easier for those who ARE looking to club to get to Downtown Disney rather than the Boardwalk.

Perhaps the problem with the Adventurer's Club is that it's just too hard to promote properly?  Even I have only the vaguest notions what it's about; it strikes me as the kind of thing that must be experienced to understand it -- and even then, only some people are going to "get it".

Perhaps, once the Pleasure Island area is redone and a closer look can be taken at how the traffic flow is working, space can be found for a new and improved adventurer's club.

Serious question (Tuckenie, would appeciate any inside info you have in particular)--what happened to the plan, maybe a year ago, to redo the pathway along the lake and make that the "main thoroughfare" from the Marketplace to Westside.  Seems like that would have been an easier way to increase traffic between the two.

And honestly, if Virgin thinks the only reason their music CD store is hurting is a lack of pedestrian traffic, they are seriously out of touch with thier industry.

BonnettCreekChief...you obviously haven't been down Church Street recently. It has been completely revitalized and is home to some of Orlando's best bars and clubs once again. The Cheyanne Saloon, for example, is the kind of place that makes you hate Magic Kingdom's alcohol ban because it looks like it was tailor made to be part of Frontierland.

Secondly, there is no way that Disney does not consider CityWalk a competitor. Locals won't touch Disney property with a ten foot pole, but they have no problem club hopping at CityWalk. If anything, I see this as a sign that Disney thinks Universal has the adult market in a stranglehold, so they might as well return to their break and butter of families and people who want a bland, boozeless vacation.

Tuckenie said

"partners or suits who wanted to avoid guest confusion with only a couple of clubs open. "

Really?  I know I dont like to think a lot on vacation- I even have a name for it- "Vacation Brain".  But does the general public get confused by one or 2 clubs being left open while work is done on the rest?  But I guess if people were confused because you used to need a ticket to get in before...

AC was my draw to DD.  I stopped in other shops, and maybe the HOB for dinner, because I was going to the AC.  

Why dont they just make the West Side more appealing, have more shops that people want to go to.  Why was PI responsible for getting traffic there, when there wasnt anything other than HOB, and DQ there.

I couldnt imagine going on vacation and going out of my way to watch a movie, or buy a CD.  

Virgin Megastore is failing because 1) iTunes, plus you can't play a CD on your iPod, so you have to wait to rip it until you get home, so there's no point to buying it there; and 2) just about everyone in the country can go to a Barnes and Noble and get the same stuff Virgin is selling, in a similar atmosphere.

There's nothing special about that store. It's not fun or exciting. It's just a store with the same CDs and books you can get at home, from Amazon, or download from iTunes. It's failing because it's a retail concept whose time is past, not because people can't walk past the Adventurer's Club.

For the record....Virgin Megastores are closing ALL OVER. They have completely shut down in Los Angeles/Hollywood/Burbank, as has Tower Records, and as for Barnes & Noble--it is dying and theyr'e trying to see whether they can merge with Borders which, yep, is dying too.

Retail music is yesterday's horse, folks--and it has nothing...NOTHING...to do with WDW or Downtown Disney. But let's face it---people do not go to WDW to buy pop and rock albums or classics or whatever, or BOOKS of a general nature for that matter--they go to buy DISNEY stuff IF it is unique and not the same as Wal-mart (BTW, Wal-Mart...or, I guess with the new logo makeover, Walmart* is how we're spelling it now...is the single LARGEST RETAILER of recorded music on disc in the known universe....but IT TOO is cutting back because...yep, downloads are the way music AND video will be bought and are being bought in the age of Ipods, streaming video, and cheap massive hard drive storage.

As for appealing to locals and/or wooing them away from CityWalk...who CARES? The only value of the locals is in the "off season" to take up the non-tourist slack..and in THEORY there should BE no truly "off" season at WDW if they're marketing the place right---comparatively lighter, but not so far "off" that it loses money to keep the place open. Also remember that CityWalk and Universal are in reach of more local metropolitan Orlando population, and with gas prices going up, up, up, who's gonna drive (in tourist traffic AFTER work no less) down to WDW?

And what about Cirque? Hey, folks--that is what the "people with kids nighttime attraction" IS at DTD! It is where you take the KIDS when the NON-kids are at the dance clubs! And why is IT falling off? Because, of course, there are UMPTEEN Cirque Du Soleil experiences out there now, unlike when it opened or at least as much like when it opened. IF you've been to Vegas and seen a few of them, OR they've toured your town, ANd you are on an already budget-busting WDW vacation which you may have DRIVEN to and/or paid extra fees to airlines to get to due to fuel price rises.....are you really ready to shell out several hundred bucks to take the kids to see yet ANOTHER admittedly-great-but-not-THAT-different Cirque Du Soleil show? Probably not--and the proof is that even in VEGAS they have had to add new elements...the big water stunts in "O" at Bellagio, the BEATLES to bring in us oldfart-babyboomers at "Love" at the Mirage....to keep the turnstiles turning.

So....all these official reasons and arguments just plain don't wash. Tuck, I'll take your word for it on the sincerity of the top guy at DTD....but I'll tell you that either he or his superiors or his subordinates are making a seriously boneheaded play here no matter how sincere they are, and that the kinds of excuses you've related that are being circulated among cast members are just plain hogwash for the reasons above. WDW, as much as it wishes it truly was a "world" to itself, is not immune to either general trends in merchandising/retail/tourism OR to the basic facts of marketing life. Those all say not to do this, those all say the reasons given are dumb or bogus, and those all say this is yet another sign of seriously BAD management in the Mouse House.

What are adults supposed to do at night at WDW now. Sit in there hotel rooms and bother no one. Alot of people besides families go to WDW. Now they have pretty much killed off their main place for nighttime entertainment. You know they go after the convention business and weddings, exactly where are these people going to go now to have a good time. Once again, surprise surprise, we have a short sighted decision by mgmt at WDW. You know so many things have improved in this company since Iger took over but one of those things is not WDW. TDR seems to be in good hands now but WDW continues to be run by a bunch of accountants and marketing people who seem to have no clue what their guests need. What are they gonna say to all the adults now who do come there and spend alot money when they ask what is there to do at night. Well, you could go eat at a restaurant or go see a movie or La Nouba. And when they ask hey do you have some sort of nightclub complex like Universal has, what are they gonna tell them, Oh we used too but we tore it down cause guests only want more dining and shopping that they can get anywhere. Yes, PI was a shell of its former self but it is still better than whatever lame ass crap they are gonna put in.

According to the people I know CW, AC and 8Trax were all turning a pretty good profit. I also think that the closing of PI may be taking place earlier than planned. A really vague press release that doesn't really say anything about what is coming, a new fiscal year starts on October 1st and with alot of talk that bookings are way down in the fall I wouldn't be surprised if they bumped up there plans to close them and those buildings are going to sit empty for awhile. For many of us this whole thing just leaves a bad taste in our mouths and I wouldn't be surprised of many people end up being even more angry if some of those buildings sit there empty for a couple of years.

I am still shocked even though I knew something was coming in some form but many of us who are in the know thought that at least CW and AC were going to be spared. In the long run I think Disney is really shooting themselves in the foot with this move. There are alot of adults who come to WDW now, who spend alot of money and now you have pretty much taken away the only nightlife that the resort had that was pretty unique. Like I said earlier what are adults supposed to do now if they want to go out and have a good time cause a few restaurants that have some entertainment isn't gonna cut it.

It would be one thing if they were replacing it with something unique but they are replacing it with stuff you can pretty much get in most places in the country. I like Raglan Road but there are authentic Irish pubs w/entertainment all over the country. This move just continues the blanding of WDW.

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Based on all the people leaving comments here, that basically everyone who attends PI must be in this discussion. On the last trip to WDW in late March, there were fewer people in line for CW than there is in this discussion board, and that was about 10 minutes before the door opened.

PI hit a specific demographic, but for the masses that attend WDW, the vast majority of them have no idea that AC or CW even exist.

That's a good point about Cirque. I first went to WDW when I moved to FL in 2001. La Nouba was essentially the same show then as it is now. Why would anyone pay $200 to see a show again, especially if it hasn't been updated at all? They tour with a different show every year.

Come to think of it, DQ hasn't changed since I moved, either. No new attractions at all. If new rides drive park business, why isn't this also true of Cirque and DQ? Why is this being laid at the feet of PI?

JohnWayne:  For the record, I didn't say the reasons we were hearing were GOOD or CORRECT.  I just said that those are the reasons we're hearing.  I DID say that this was coming from outside sources, both from operating participants and above DTD management.

I also was using Virgin Megastore as an example.  Sales are down all across the West Side in comparison to the Marketplace and WOD.  It's a total imbalance.  That's why Mickey's Groove keeps changing the product it offers.  The fear with Virgin is that it could start a mass exodus from the West Side, a fear I think is stupid for the reasons JohnWayne mentions but I also don't make those decisions.  Same thing goes with Cirque.  Having them pull out would just be embarrassing for Disney and would hurt the chances of adding more unique entertainment.

I'm also seeing a lot of complaints about adding restaurants and the t-shirt store.  What needs to be understood is that this is in response to guest feedback.  DTD restaurants are always very crowded with some (Rainforest Cafe) having very long wait times as a result.  The demand for more places to eat is very real and T-Rex is not going to help as much as you would think.  Contributing to this problem is that only about half of the restaurants in DTD have the dining plan.  So what happens is that guests seeking a meal wind up going to the most evil McDonald's on the planet.   Thus we get guest requests for more places to eat.

The T-Shirt shop is actually not a new concept to DTD.  There used to be a shop in the Marketplace that offered air-brushed tees.  We actually get requests for it to return from disappointed guests on a daily basis.  Mostly because it may be the only way guests can get tees with their favorite Disney characters on them.  (Jiminy Cricket being the towering example at the moment.)  It'll make my job easier at least...

collins316 wrote:  "Really?  I know I dont like to think a lot on vacation- I even have a name for it- "Vacation Brain".  But does the general public get confused by one or 2 clubs being left open while work is done on the rest?"

It's not so much what confuses the general public (although I have LOT'S of stories...) as much as it's what WDW management THINKS confuses guests.

But one thing I do want to say is certain, we DO get lot's of complaints (more then you would think) from families with kids who have little to do in DTD after 8:00PM and resent the adults only appeal of the night clubs.  It's either movies or...  movies.  I'm seeing a lot of comments about adults having nothing to do at night but imagine if you had three pre-teens with you who aren't going to fall asleep till 2AM because they're from Oregon!

Also if I were a betting man (which I'm not) I would put money down on the AC rising again at a new locale in the next five years.

Tuck, that'd be great and I hope cooler heads do eventually prevail. But the difference between telling a huge fan base "Hey, we're killing your baby" and then LATER saying "Uh, well, maybe we'll move it." and finally, say in your time frame, saying FIVE YEARS after all that (a) lost momentum and (b) forgetting of the concept and (c) dispersal of the talent and (d) angry, hurt feelings IN that fan base, "HEY! Look what's BACK only DIFFERENT!" .....again, crappy marketing and management. Since they aren't closing until September, why not take a month or two to conceptualize WHERE and HOW the move will happen and make THAT a part of the announcement re. PI all at once? For that matter, they could have kept the Comedy Warehouse as a nigttime attraction to get people to the revamped PI section of DTD only made it family friendly, too, with its own cover charge. Frankly, I think a "clean, family-friendly" comedy concept is the very spirit of the Disney ethos...or used to be...not to mention a novelty that would have its own "draw" just on those grounds in these smutty, sleazy times. If the issue is alcohol, well, keep it to a "beer and wine" license and make some "virgin" "mocktails" for the kids, and if THAT is deemed to low-revenue, just do the cover charge/ticket thing--it certainly would be a  more attractive evening's alternative to more themeparking for a family to go to DTD and dine, shop and be ENTERTAINED as opposed to "Well, we'll eat dinner--which we coulda done at the hotel or in the parks--and then go spend money on more mediocre, pricier-than-Wal-mart Disney stuff, which we ALSO coulda done at.....oh, wait. Nevermind."

Parks are open at night.

It's pretty clear WDW doesn't really want my business any longer. That's fine; I'll do something else. But they ought not to pretend that it's a new and exciting change that will appeal to everyone--they've just decided that my family (two adults, one small child, parents who want to go out for "date night" after hanging with the kid all day) isn't their demographic.

Parks are open at night - but you'd better have $45 handy if you want to go to the MK at night. But let's discuss one boneheaded move by WDW management at a time...

Tuck, not a dig at you, only your bosses--how are an upscale Central American restaurant (with a tequila bar) and a newly redesigned upscale Italian restaurant supposed to provide families with kids something new to do?

As for the West Side, besides the clear anchor of Virgin, you have a magnet store (yawn),  a Planet Hollywood outlet (about 20 years out of style), a magic store (cute, but how many people will really buy something here) and a high-priced art gallery (interesting, but again, who on vacation is looking to drop a couple grand on art?).  Nothing is going to save these stores, because they have nothing the average tourist is going to buy.  The exceptions being the candy and "mini" Disney store, but there are bigger versions of each over in the Marketplace.

FYI, the "upscale Central American and tequila bar" concept comes from Downtown Disney in Anaheim. There was originally a private franchisee in that spot when DTD-Disneyland opened but they pulled out and Disney took over the place with a re-name but not much of a re-theme. So the answer to the question is simple: They already had the experience/concept/format "on the shelf" and tested, so it was cheaper/easier to re-do in the Florida location than something new or newly conceptualized.

I fully understand why PI has to close. Its time had passed in its current form.

But the Adventurer's Club is something very special -- one of the most creative, entertaining pieces of live entertainment ANYWHERE on the Disney property.

But here's what's interesting: the AC was always packed to the gills. Off-season, it didn't matter... still packed 'til the end of the Hoopla. And this is a spot that not only was little-known to most guests... it was little-known to most PI visitors as well. Almost everyone I know who's an AC fan passed the place by when they first saw it, assuming it was some sort of store or ritzy dance club. But once someone took them there and they 'got it', they couldn't wait to go back.

The AC deserves better. A larger version with more seats as an adjunct to the Animal Kingdom.... or as part of Adventureland (family shows during the day, adult shows after 8)... or at the Animal Kingdom Resort... or as a dinner theater at Disney's Hollywood.

The Adventurer's Club is too damn creative to tear down forever.

Let's NOT ruin it by making it too big, setting formal "shows" with dinner, or otherwise "fixing" what isn't broke. MOVE it if need be? Fine. But "improve" it and ruin it? Please, no.

JohnWayne -- it doesn't need any improvement, I can't agree more. But if its continued survival meant that it had to justify its existence with food service, or enlarged seating, then I'd rather make concessions than see it gone forever.

Given the flailing about that Disney has done in trying to turn its Pleasure Island area of Downtown Disney (Walt Disney World) into a popular (but not teen-hangout-friendly) area, this...