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The “Snow White” that wasn’t: Why Disney took a pass on a Joe Papp production that would have had Linda Ronstadt starring as the Fairest in the Land

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Now through February 7th (in honor of the 80th anniversary of the general release of the studio’s first full-length animated feature), Disney is presenting “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” at the El Capitan Theatre.

To help sell tickets to this extremely limited engagement (How limited? Just six days. Then the El Cap tosses The Fairest in the Land out on her fanny to make room for its Throwback Thursday presentation. Which – fittingly enough [given that the opening ceremonies for the Winter Olympics in PyeongChang are being held on Friday] is Disney’s 1993 sports comedy about the Jamaican bobsled team, “Cool Running”), this classic Hollywood movie palace is telling would-be ticket buyers that ” … Before the show, see Snow White live on stage!”

Copyright Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved

Now no disrespect for the obviously-talented-but-deliberately-anonymous (because that’s the Disney way) young woman that the El Capitan has hired to play the Little Princess out ahead of each of these 80th anniversary screenings of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,” but you know what might make us all far more eager to attend this promoted pre-show?  If the theater had hired a big name to play the title role. Like – say – 11-time Grammy Award winner Linda Ronstadt.

“But that’s crazy, Jim,” you say. “Ronstadt retired from performing back in 2011. And given that Linda was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease in December 2012, it’s doubtful that she’ll ever sing again. Let alone play Disney’s version of Snow White.”

Sadly, all of the above is true. But you know what’s even sadder? 35 years ago this month, Broadway legend Joe Papp was actually negotiating with the Mouse House to try and make this happen.

A flyer hyping Linda Ronstadt’s 1971 appearance at Disneyland Park. Copyright Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved

Don’t believe me? Take a gander at this article from the February 18, 1983 edition of the Los Angeles Daily News:

Award-winning theater producer Joseph Papp is negotiating with the Walt Disney organization to acquire the legitimate theater rights to the 1937 film version of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. The stage version would include the film’s original songs and would feature Linda Ronstadt in the leading role. The Papp-Ronstadt Snow White will be presented free of charge during the summer of 1983 in the Delacorte Theater in Central Park.

So what set this surreal set of circumstances in motion? Believe it or not, it was Papp’s acclaimed 1980 production of Gilbert & Sullivan’s comic opera, “The Pirates of Penzance” (Which – not-so-co-incidentally – was also originally presented at the Delacorte Theater in Central Park before it then transferred first to the Uris and then the Minskoff Theatre for a very profitable Broadway run).

What made this particular version of “Pirates of Penzance” such a sensation back in the 1980s was A) director Wilford Leach decided to really play up the comedy in this then-101 year-old comic opera and B) Papp’s decision to recruit stars to come play key roles in “Pirates” in order to this aged enterprise some added energy. Which is how Oscar winner Kevin Kline wound up being cast as the Pirate King (His swashbuckling / slapstick-infused take on this character resulted in Kline winning that year’s Tony for Best Actor in a Musical), teen idol / pop singer Rex Smith was hired to play Frederic and …

Linda Ronstadt in Universal Pictures’ 1983 movie version of “The Pirates of Penzance.” Copyright NBCUniversal. All rights reserved

… As for the casting of Mabel (i.e., one of the Major-General’s many daughters. To be specific, the one who gets to trill “Poor Wandering One”), Papp had a genuinely inspired idea. He reached out to Ronstadt (who had just released “Mad Love,” her seventh consecutive million selling album) and asked Linda if she’d like to take a break from selling out arenas all over the world and make her legitimate stage debut instead.

And as it turns out, Ronstadt was really ready to take a break from rock-n-roll. But when she showed up up to begin rehearsals of “The Pirates of Penzance,” her co-stars were genuinely startled to learn how little practical acting experience Linda actually had.

How little? The only time previous that Ronstadt had worked off of a script was May of 1980. Which was when Linda had flown to London to shoot an episode of “The Muppet Show.”

Linda Ronstadt and the cast of “The Muppet Show.” Copyright Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved

So – with so little experience when it came to lines & dialogue – how then Ronstadt then find her way when it came to the role of Mabel? She decided to base her performance in “The Pirates of Penzance” on what Linda once called ” … one of the most brilliant pieces of art in the twentieth century.” And that was Walt Disney’s “Snow White.”

“Mabel’s like a big cartoon and I guess I’m a cartoon character, too,” Ronstadt admitted in an August 1980 interview with Newsweek magazine. “I did (this show) for fun and I’m glad I did.”

And Joe – because he’d also had fun working with Linda – wanted to continue their collaboration. Which is why – given that Papp knew that Ronstadt was such a huge “Snow White” fan – began pursuing the stage rights for Disney’s first-ever full length animated feature. Figuring that – if he could persuade Mouse House execs to get onboard with this idea and then stage this production back at the Delacorte Theater in Central Park (i.e., a venue that this celebrated singer was already familiar with / comfortable with performing at) – there was just no way that Linda could then pass on this project.

Linda Ronstadt (far left) on stage at the Delacorte Theatre as Mabel with her sisters (far right) and their father, the Major-General (played by the late, great George Rose).

That was the plan as of February 1983. That the Public Theater’s proposed production of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” would follow the “Pirates of Penzance” playbook. That rehearsals would begin sometime in the mid-summer, followed by a three week-long run at the Delacorte theater. Then – provided that the reviews were strong enough (more importantly, provided that Ronstadt was willing to continue in the role) – this new stage version of “Snow White” would then transfer to Broadway for an open-ended run.

But sometime over the next three months, Papp’s plan fell apart. Which is why Joe was then forced to put together another project for Linda. As New York Magazine reported in its May 9, 1983 issue:

 

Bob Jani, back in his Creative-Director-for-Walt-Disney-Productions days. Copyright Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved

And why exactly did Disney not give Papp permission to proceed with this seeming sure-fire project? To borrow a phrase from Facebook, it’s complicated.

Long story short: Disney entertainment legend Bob Jani (who had left the Company in 1978 to go help revive Radio City Music Hall’s “Magnificent Christmas Spectacular.” As a reward for bringing that NYC holiday favorite back from the very brink of extinction, Jani was then named president of Radio City Music Hall Productions. Which meant that Bob was now in charge of Radio City’s annual Christmas pageant as well as charged with creating other new stage productions that would then compel tourists as well as New Yorkers to come visit this historic entertainment venue on a far more regular basis) persuaded his old Mouse House bosses to award Radio City the stage rights to “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” in early 1979.

You see, Jani remembered that – back in August of 1969 – the St. Louis Municipal Opera Association had (with the cooperation of Walt Disney Productions executives) put together a trial stage adaptation of “Snow White.” This show then ran for two weeks at this giant outdoor venue (And when I say “giant,” I mean GIANT. The St. Louis MUNY has more than 12,000 seats). Once production of this trial stage version of “Snow White” wrapped, all rights then reverted to Walt Disney Productions. And the Company could then do what it wanted with this script.

Bob knew that the stage version of “Snow White” that had been presented in the more-than-12,000 seat MUNY back in 1969 could easily be adapted to play at the 6,015 seat Radio City Musical Hall in 1979. More to the point, once Radio City’s stage version of “Snow White” was mounted, this $750,000 extravaganza could then be toured around the country. With the idea being that this touring show would then generate funds that Radio City Music Hall Productions could then funnel into production of new shows for the mothership.

That was the plan as of October 14, 1979. Which was Jani told the New York Times that – out ahead of the very first performance of Disney’s “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” at Radio City Music Hall – come November, this 90 minute-long musical fairytale (which was presented without an intermission) will then …

… begin a national tour — definitely scheduled through June — of Washington, D.C., Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco, the proceeds of which, Music Hall executives hope, will help offset the high cost of mounting the production. Plans to visit other locations (including, possibly, Great Britain), which could keep “Snow White” on the road until Christmas 1980, are still being formulated.

Ad promoting “Snow White” ‘s stop in Washington, D.C. during its national tour. 

It was Bob’s desire to tour Radio City’s version of “Snow White” for several years that supposedly tripped up Joe’s plan to present a brand-new stage version of this Disney animated classic in Central Park with Linda Ronstadt. Though this elaborate stage show did make stops at the National Theater in Washington D.C. …

… and Chicago’s Arie Crown Theatre …

… before it then returns to Radio City Music Hall for an encore engagement that ran through March 9, 1980, the remainder of this expensive-to-mount traveling stage show’s proposed national tour then became a “to-be-named-later” affair. Which is why – in February of 1983 – Walt Disney Productions just wasn’t in a position to award Joe Papp the stage rights to “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.” At that time, Radio City Music Hall still held those rights. Largely because (in theory, anyway) Radio City Music Hall Productions could pull all of its “Snow White” sets & costumes out of mothballs and then send that show back out on tour.

What had further complicated the “Snow White” stage situation was that – in October of 1981 – Walt Disney Productions had signed a development deal with veteran Broadway producers Elizabeth I. McCann and Nelle Nugent. With the idea being that the talented team behind Tony Award winners like the 1978 revival of “Dracula,” 1979’s Best Play honoree “The Elephant Man,” and “Morning’s at Seven” (Which took the Tony for Best Revival in 1980) would then find shows that Mouse House could invest in. Given that it would have been somewhat awkward for Disney to enter into a brand-new business arrangement with Joe Papp and the Public Theater so soon after signing its high-profile development deal with McCann and Nugent (The worry in-house was that it would send a message to the Broadway community that Mickey had lost confidence in Elizabeth & Nelle. Which might then damage the reputation of McCann & Nugent’s then-just-getting-started-film-and-television-development production company), Disney opted to stay true to these two.

What’s the old adage that Molly Ivins popularized? You Got To Dance with Them Brung You? That’s what Walt Disney Productions wound up doing back in the late Winter / early Spring. Even though the Joe Papp / Linda Ronstadt “Snow White”-in-Central-Park deal was obviously so tempting (More to the point, it would have given the Company some creative heat & credibility at a time when Disney really needed it), Mouse House officials opted to honor the deals that they’d previously made with Bob Jani, Elizabeth McCann & Nelle Nugent and then took a pass on the Papp project.

Gary Morris and Linda Ronstadt in “La Boheme”

So Joe proceeded with his back-up project for Linda. Which was having her play the role of Mimi in the Public Theater’s production of “La Boheme.” When this eagerly anticipated show finally premiered in late November of 1984, the reviews were respectful but not exactly enthusiastic. As the New York Times put it, “… Miss Ronstadt herself knows that she’s not at home with Puccini – and one can only admire the bravery that allows her to forge ahead anyway, reason be damned.”

Meanwhile over at the Mouse House, a new management team had been put in place in late September of that same year. And Michael Eisner never forgot about what Linda Ronstadt had said about “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” (i.e., that this animated feature was ” … one of the most brilliant pieces of art in the twentieth century” ).

Which is why – in the Fall of 1986 – when The Walt Disney Company was planning a year-long celebration of the 50th anniversary of the release of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,” Eisner insisted that the Company reach out to Ronstadt. Give Linda the opportunity to finally sing those songs that she’d been denied when the Mouse House’s previous management team had refused to award Joe Papp the rights to stage “Snow White” in Central Park.

Ronstadt readily agreed when Disney’s representatives reached out. More to the point, the Mouse really pulled out the stops when it came to producing this portion of the “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs Golden Anniversary Special” (which aired on NBC on May 18, 1989). They actually shot this sequence after hours at Disneyland. With Linda artfully posed by the wishing well in the Snow White Grotto as she sang “Someday My Prince Will Come.”

And given how well that performance was received … Well, when Walt Disney Records wanted to put together a recording honoring the 50th anniversary of the release of “Cinderella,” Ronstadt was one of the very first performers that they reached out to. And Linda’s performance of “A Dream is A Wish Your Heart Makes” is one of the true highlights of 2002’s “The Music of Disney’s Cinderella.”

And speaking of dreams … Even though anyone today can see what Radio City Musical Hall’s version of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” looked like (HBO video taped this stage production towards the end of its run at Radio City. The subsequent TV special originally aired on this Pay TV channel on May 19, 1980. A year later, Walt Disney Home Video made “Snow White Live at Radio City Music Hall” available for purchase on VHS & Betamax) …

… the Joe Papp / Linda Ronstadt version of “Snow White” remains something that theater fans continue to dream and/or speculate about. The closest approximation that we will ever probably get to what this Delacorte Theater production might have been like is the 2012 revival of “Into the Woods.” This Shakespeare in the Park production featured all sorts of modern day Disney favorites (EX: Donna Murphy – the voice of Mother Gothel from 2010’s “Tangled” [EDITOR’S NOTE: How bizarre must it have been for Murphy – having just voiced Rapunzel’s antagonist for that Walt Disney Animation Studios film – to now be playing scenes with that exact same character in this Sondheim musical?];  Amy Adams – Princess Giselle from 2007’s “Enchanted” as the Baker’s wife; and Glenn Close – Cruella de Vil from 1996’s “101 Dalmatians” & 2000’s “101 Dalmatians” as the Voice of the Giant) opened (just as “Pirates of Penzance” did in 1980 and as just as “Snow White” was originally scheduled to do in 1983) in early August.

And as Ben Brantley recounted in his review of this “Into the Woods” revival for The New York Times, “Central Park at night, when the moon rises and the wild things roam, sounded like the ideal and inevitable setting for stories of nature enchanted.”

Which – admittedly – isn’t quite as poetic as what the Magic Mirror says in Disney’s “Snow White” (i.e., “Over the seven jeweled hills, beyond the seventh fall, in the cottage of the seven dwarfs, dwells Snow White, fairest one of all”). But it ain’t bad.

Snow White and her prince explore NYC’s Central Park as part of a November 2017 photo shoot. Copyright Disney Enterprises, Inc. All rights reserved

If you like these sorts of hyper-detailed Mouse-related stories, then you should definitely check out Disney Dish & Marvel Us Disney (two podcasts that Jim participates in). You’ll find hours of great listening over at Bandcamp & iTunes. Be sure and support these shows by subscribing.

Jim Hill is an entertainment writer who has specialized in covering The Walt Disney Company for nearly 40 years now. Over that time, he has interviewed hundreds of animators, actors, and Imagineers -- many of whom have shared behind-the-scenes stories with Mr. Hill about how the Mouse House really works. In addition to the 4000+ articles Jim has written for the Web, he also co-hosts a trio of popular podcasts: “Disney Dish with Len Testa,” “Fine Tooning with Drew Taylor” and “Marvel US Disney with Aaron Adams.” Mr. Hill makes his home in Southern New Hampshire with his lovely wife Nancy and two obnoxious cats, Ginger & Betty.

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Film & Movies

Before He Was 626: The Surprisingly Dark Origins of Disney’s Stitch

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Hopes are high for Disney’s live-action version of Lilo & Stitch, which opens in theaters next week (on May 23rd to be exact). And – if current box office projections hold – it will sell more than $120 million worth of tickets in North America.

Stitch Before the Live-Action: What Fans Need to Know

But here’s the thing – there wouldn’t have been a hand-drawn version of Stitch to reimagine as a live-action film if it weren’t for Academy Award-winner Chris Sanders. Who – some 40 years ago – had a very different idea in mind for this project. Not an animated film or a live-action movie, for that matter. But – rather – a children’s picture book.

Sanders revealed the true origins of Lilo & Stitch in his self-published book, From Pitch to Stitch: The Origins of Disney’s Most Unusual Classic.

From Picture Book to Pitch Meeting

Chris – after he graduated from CalArts back in 1984 (this was three years before he began working for Disney) – landed a job at Marvel Comics. Which – because Marvel Animation was producing the Muppet Babies TV show – led to an opportunity to design characters for that animated series.

About a year into this gig (we’re now talking 1985), Sanders – in his time away from work – began noodling on a side project. As Chris recalled in From Pitch to Stitch:

“Early in my animation career, I tried writing a picture book that centered around a weird little creature that lived a solitary life in the forest. He was a monster, unsure of where he had come from, or where he belonged. I generated a concept drawing, wrote some pages and started making a sculpted version of him. But I soon abandoned it as the idea seemed too large and vague to fit in thirty pages or so.”

We now jump ahead 12 years or so. Sanders has quickly moved up through the ranks at Walt Disney Animation Studios. So much so that – by 1997 – Chris is now the Head of Story on Disney’s Mulan.

A Monster in the Forest Becomes Stitch on Earth

With Mulan deep in production, Sanders was looking for his next project when an opportunity came his way.

“I had dinner with Tom Schumacher, who was president of Feature Animation at the time. He asked if there was anything I might be interested in directing. After a little reflection, I realized that there was something: That old idea from a decade prior.”

When Sanders told Schumacher about the monster who lived alone in the forest…

“Tom offered the crucial observation that – because the animal world is already alien to us – I should consider relocating the creature to the human world.”

With that in mind, Chris dusted off the story and went to work.

Over the next three months, Sanders created a pitch book for the proposed animated film. What he came up with was very different from the version of Lilo & Stitch that eventually hit theaters in 2002.

The Most Dangerous Creature in the Known Universe

The pitch – first shared with Walt Disney Feature Animation staffers on January 9, 1998 – was titled: Lilo & Stitch: A love story of a girl and what she thinks is a dog.

This early version of Stitch was… not cute. Not cuddly. He was mean, selfish, self-centered – a career criminal. When the story opens, Stitch is in a security pod at an intergalactic trial, found guilty of 12,000 counts of hooliganism and attempted planetary enslavement.

Instead of being created by Jumba, Stitch leads a gang of marauders. His second-in-command? Ramthar, a giant, red shark-like brute.

When Stitch refuses to reveal the gang’s location, he’s sentenced to life on a maximum-security asteroid. But en route, his gang attacks the prison convoy. In the chaos, Stitch escapes in a hijacked pod and crash-lands on Earth.

Earth in Danger, Jumba on the Hunt

Terrified of what Stitch could do to our technologically inferior planet, the Grand Council Woman sends bounty hunter Jumba – along with a rule-abiding Cultural Contamination Control agent named Pleakley – to retrieve (or eliminate) Stitch.

Their mission must be secret, follow Earth laws, and – most importantly – ensure no harm comes to any humans.

Naturally, Stitch ignores all that.

After his crash, Stitch claws out of the wreckage, sees the lights of a nearby town, and screams, “I will destroy you all!” That plan is immediately derailed when he’s run over by a convoy of sugar cane trucks.

Waking up in the local humane society, Stitch sees a news report confirming the Federation is already hot on his trail. He needs to blend in. Fast.

Enter Lilo

Lilo is a lonely little girl, mourning her parents, looking for a pet. Stitch plays the role of a “cute little doggie” because it’s a means to an end. At this point, Lilo is just someone to use while he builds a communications device.

Using parts from her toys and a stolen police radio, Stitch contacts his old gang. But Ramthar, now the leader, isn’t thrilled. Still, Stitch sends a signal.

Then he builds an army.

Stitch Goes Full Skynet

Stitch constructs a small robot, sends it to the junkyard to build bigger robots. Soon, he has an army. When Ramthar and crew arrive, Stitch’s robots surround them. Ramthar is furious, but Stitch regains command.

Next, Stitch sets his robotic horde on a nearby town. Everything goes smoothly until a robot targets the hula studio where Lilo is dancing. As it lifts her in its claw, Stitch has a change of heart. He saves her.

From here, the plot begins to resemble the Lilo & Stitch we know today. Sort of.

The Ending That Never Was

In Sanders’ original version, it’s not Captain Gantu who kidnaps Lilo, but Ramthar. And when the Grand Council Woman comes to collect Stitch, Lilo produces a receipt from the humane society.

“I paid a $4 processing fee to adopt him. If you take Stitch, you’re stealing.”

The Grand Council Woman crumples the receipt and says, “I didn’t see it.”

Nani chimes in: “Well, I saw it.”

Then Jumba. Then one of Stitch’s old crew. Then a hula girl. And finally, Pleakley pulls out his CCC badge and says:

“Well, I am Pleakley Grathor, Cultural Contamination Control Agent No. 444. And I saw it.”

Pleakley saves Stitch.

How Roy E. Disney Made Stitch Cuddly

Ultimately, this version of Lilo & Stitch was streamlined. Roy E. Disney believed Stitch shouldn’t be nasty. Just naughty. And not by choice – he was designed that way.

Which is how Stitch became Experiment 626. A misunderstood creation of Jumba the mad scientist, not a hardened criminal with a vendetta.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Ricardo Montalbán’s Lost Role

Here’s a detail that even hardcore Lilo & Stitch fans may not know: Ricardo Montalbán—best known as Mr. Roarke from Fantasy Island and Khan Noonien Singh from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan—was originally cast as the voice of Ramthar, Stitch’s second-in-command in this early version of the film. He had already recorded a significant amount of dialogue before the story was reworked following Roy E. Disney’s guidance. When Stitch evolved from a ruthless galactic outlaw to a misunderstood genetic experiment, Montalbán’s character (and much of the original gang concept) was written out entirely.

Which is kind of wild when you think about it. Wrath of Khan is widely considered the gold standard of Star Trek films. So yes, for a time, Khan himself was supposed to be part of Disney’s weirdest sci-fi comedy.

Stitch’s Legacy (and Why It Still Resonates)

Looking back at Stitch’s original story, it’s wild to think how close we came to getting a very different kind of movie. One where our favorite blue alien was less “ohana means family” and more “I’ll destroy you all.” But that transformation—from outlaw to outcast to ohana—is exactly what makes Lilo & Stitch so special.

So as the live-action version prepares to hit theaters, keep in mind that behind all the cuddly merch and tiki mugs lies one of Disney’s strangest, boldest, and most hard-won reinventions. One that started with a forest monster and became a beloved franchise about found family.

June 26th is officially Stitch Day—so mark your calendar. It’s a good excuse to celebrate just how far this little blue alien has come.

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How “An American Tail” Led to Disney’s “Hocus Pocus”

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Over the last week, I’ve been delving into Witches Run Amok, Shannon Carlin’s oral history of the making of Disney’s Hocus Pocus. This book reveals some fascinating behind-the-scenes stories about the 1993 film that initially bombed at the box office but has since become a cult favorite, even spawning a sequel in 2022 that went on to become the most-watched release in Disney+ history.

But what really caught my eye in this 284-page hardcover wasn’t just the tales of Hocus Pocus’s unlikely rise to fame. Rather, it was the unexpected connections between Hocus Pocus and another beloved film—An American Tail. As it turns out, the two films share a curious origin story, one that begins in the mid-1980s, during the early days of the creative rebirth of Walt Disney Studios under Michael Eisner, Frank Wells, and Jeffrey Katzenberg.

The Birth of An American Tail

Let’s rewind to late 1984/early 1985, a period when Eisner, Wells, and Katzenberg were just getting settled at Disney and were on the hunt for fresh projects that would signal a new era at the studio. During this time, Katzenberg—tasked with revitalizing Disney Feature Animation—began meeting with talent across Hollywood, hoping to find a project that could breathe life into the struggling division.

One such meeting was with a 29-year-old writer and illustrator named David Kirschner. At the time, Kirschner’s biggest credit was illustrating children’s books featuring Muppets and Sesame Street characters, but he had an idea for a new project: a TV special about a mouse emigrating to America, culminating in the mouse’s arrival in New York Harbor on the same day as the dedication of the Statue of Liberty in 1886.

David Kirschner
David Kirschner (IMDb)

Katzenberg saw the patriotic appeal of the concept but ultimately passed on it, as he was focused on finding full-length feature projects for Disney’s animation department. Kirschner, undeterred, took his pitch elsewhere—to none other than Kathleen Kennedy, Steven Spielberg’s production partner. Kennedy was intrigued and invited Kirschner to Spielberg’s annual Fourth of July party to pitch the idea directly to the famed director.

Spielberg immediately saw the potential in Kirschner’s idea, but instead of a TV special, he envisioned a full-length animated feature film. This project would eventually become An American Tail, a tribute of sorts to Spielberg’s own grandfather, Philip Posner, who emigrated from Russia to the United States in the late 19th century. The film’s lead character, Fievel, was even named after Spielberg’s grandfather, whose Yiddish name was also Fievel.

Disney’s Loss Becomes Universal’s Gain

An American Tail went on to become a major success for Universal Pictures, which hadn’t been involved in an animated feature since the release of Pinocchio in Outer Space in 1965. Meanwhile, over at Disney, Eisner and Wells weren’t exactly thrilled that Katzenberg had let such a promising project slip through his fingers.

Not wanting to miss out on any future opportunities with Kirschner, Katzenberg quickly scheduled another meeting with him to discuss any other ideas he might have. And as fate would have it, Kirschner had just written a short story for Muppet Magazine called Halloween House, about a boy who is magically transformed into a cat by a trio of witches.

The Pitch That Sealed the Deal

Knowing Katzenberg could be a tough sell, Kirschner went all out to impress during his pitch. He requested access to the Disney lot 30 minutes early to set the stage for his presentation. When Katzenberg and the Disney development team walked into the conference room, they were greeted by a table covered in candy corn, a cauldron of dry ice fog, and a broom, mop, and vacuum cleaner suspended from the ceiling as if they were flying—evoking the magical world of Halloween House.

Katzenberg was reportedly unimpressed by the theatrical setup, muttering, “Oy, show-and-tell time” as he took his seat. But Kirschner knew exactly how to grab his attention. He started his pitch with the fact that Halloween was a billion-dollar business—a figure that made Katzenberg sit up and take notice. He listened attentively to Kirschner’s pitch, and by the time the meeting was over, Katzenberg was convinced. Halloween House would become Hocus Pocus, and Disney had its next big Halloween film.

A Bit of Hollywood Drama

Interestingly, Kirschner’s success with Hocus Pocus didn’t sit well with his old collaborators. About a year after the film’s release, Kirschner ran into Kathleen Kennedy at an Amblin holiday party, and she wasted no time in expressing her disappointment. According to Kirschner, Kennedy said, “You really hurt Steven.” When Kirschner asked how, she explained that Spielberg and Kennedy had given him his big break with An American Tail, but when he came up with the idea for his next film, he brought it to Disney rather than to them.

Hollywood can be a place where loyalty is valued—or, at least, perceived loyalty. At the same time, this was happening just as Katzenberg was leaving Disney and partnering with Spielberg and David Geffen to launch DreamWorks SKG, which only added to the tension. Loyalty, as Kirschner found out, can be an abstract concept in the entertainment industry.

A Halloween Favorite is Born

Despite its rocky start at the box office in 1993, Hocus Pocus has gone on to become a beloved part of Halloween pop culture. And, as Carlin’s book details, its success helped pave the way for more Disney Halloween-themed projects in the years that followed.

As for why Hocus Pocus was released in July of 1993 instead of during Halloween? That’s a story for another time, but it has something to do with another Halloween-themed project Disney was working on that year—Tim Burton’s The Nightmare Before Christmas—and Katzenberg finding himself in the awkward position of having to choose between keeping Bette Midler or Tim Burton happy.

For more behind-the-scenes stories about Hocus Pocus and other Disney films, be sure to check out Witches Run Amok by Shannon Carlin. It’s a fascinating read for any Disney fan!

And if you love hearing these kinds of behind-the-scenes stories about animation and film history, be sure to check out Fine Tooning with Drew Taylor, where Drew and I dive deep into all things movies, animation, and the creative decisions that shape the films we love. You can find us on your favorite podcast platforms or right here on JimHillMedia.com.

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How Disney’s “Bambi” led to the creation of Smokey Bear

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When people talk about Disney’s “Bambi,” the scene that they typically cite as being the one from this 1942 film which then scarred them for life is – of course – the moment in this movie where Bambi’s mother gets shot by hunters.

Which is kind of ironic. Given that – if you watch this animated feature today – you’ll see that a lot of this ruined-my-childhood scene actually happens off-camera. I mean, you hear the rifle shot that takes down Bambi’s Mom. But you don’t actually see that Mama Deer get clipped.

Now for the scariest part of that movie that you actually see on-camera … Hands down, that has to be the forest fire sequence in “Bambi.” As the grown-up Bambi & his bride, Faline, desperately race through those woods, trying to find a path to safety as literally everything around them is ablaze … That sequence is literally nightmare fuel.

Source: Economist.com

Mind you, the artists at Walt Disney Animation Studios had lots of inspiration for the forest fire sequence in “Bambi.” You see, in a typical year, the United States experiences – due to either natural phenomenon like lightning strikes or human carelessness – 100 forest fires. Whereas in 1940 (i.e., the year that Disney Studios began working in earnest of a movie version of Felix Salten’s best-selling movie), America found itself battling a record 360 forest fires.

Which greatly concerned the U.S. Forest Service. But not for the reason you might think.

Protecting the Forest for World War II

I mean, yes. Sure. Officials over in the Agricultural Department (That’s the arm of the U.S. government that manages the Forest Service) were obviously concerned about the impact that this record number of forest fires in 1940 had had on citizens. Not to mention all of the wildlife habitat that was now lost.

But to be honest, what really concerned government officials was those hundreds of thousands of acres of raw timber that had been consumed by these blazes. You see, by 1940, the world was on the cusp of the next world war. A conflict that the U.S. would inevitably  be pulled into. And all that now-lost timber? It could have been used to fuel the U.S. war machine.

So with this in mind (and U.S. government officials now seeing an urgent need to preserve & protect this precious resource) … Which is why – in 1942 (just a few months after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor) – the U.S. Forest Service rolls out its first-ever forest fire prevention program.

Which – given that this was the early days of World War II – the slogan that the U.S. Forest Service initially chose for its forest fire prevention program is very in that era’s we’re-all-in-this-together / so-let’s-do-what-we-can-to-help-America’s war-effort esthetic – made a direct appeal to all those folks who were taking part in scrap metal drives: “Forest Defense is National Defense.”

Source: Northwestern

And the poster that the U.S. Forest Service had created to support this campaign? … Well, it was well-meaning as well.  It was done in the WPA style and showed men out in the forest, wielding shovels to ditch a ditch. They were trying to construct a fire break, which would then supposedly slow the forest fire that was directly behind them.

But the downside was … That “Forest Defense is National Defense” slogan – along with that poster which the U.S. Forest Service had created to support their new forest fire prevention program didn’t exactly capture America’s attention.

I mean, it was the War Years after all. A lot was going in the country at that time. But long story short: the U.S. Forest Service’s first attempt at launching a successful forest fire prevention program sank without a trace.

So what do you do in a situation like this? You regroup. You try something different.

Disney & Bambi to the Rescue

And within the U.S. government, the thinking now was “Well, what if we got a celebrity to serve as the spokesman for our new forest fire prevention program? Maybe that would then grab the public’s attention.”

The only problem was … Well, again, these are the War Years. And a lot of that era’s A-listers (people like Jimmy Stewart, Clark Gable, even Mel Brooks) had already enlisted. So there weren’t really a lot of big-name celebrities to choose from.

But then some enterprising official at the U.S. Forest Service came up with an interesting idea. He supposedly said “Hey, have you seen that new Disney movie? You know, the one with the deer? That movie has a forest fire in it. Maybe we should go talk with Walt Disney? Maybe he has some ideas about how we can better capture the public’s attention when it comes to our new forest fire prevention program?”

And it turns Walt did have an idea. Which was to use this government initiative as a way to cross-promote Disney Studio’s latest full-length animated feature, “Bambi.” Which been first released to theaters in August of 1942.

So Walt had artists at Disney Studio work up a poster that featured the grown-up versions of Bambi the Deer, Thumper the Rabbit & Flower the Skunk. As this trio stood in some tall grasses, they looked imploring out at whoever was standing in front of this poster. Above them was a piece of text that read “Please Mister, Don’t Be Careless.” And below these three cartoon characters was an additional line that read “Prevent Forest Fires. Greater Danger Than Ever!”

Source: USDA

According to folks I’ve spoken with at Disney’s Corporate Archives, this “Bambi” -based promotional campaign for the U.S. Forest Service’s forest fire prevention campaign was a huge success. So much so that – as 1943 drew to a close – this division of the Department of Agriculture reportedly reached out to Walt to see if he’d be willing to let the U.S. Forest Service continue to use these cartoon characters to help raise the public’s awareness of fire safety.

Walt – for reasons known only to Mr. Disney – declined. Some have suggested that — because “Bambi” had actually lost money during its initial theatrical release in North America – that Walt was now looking to put that project behind him. And if there were posters plastered all over the place that then used the “Bambi” characters that then promoted the U.S.’s forest fire prevention efforts … Well, it would then be far harder for Mr. Disney to put this particular animated feature in the rear view mirror.

Introducing Smokey Bear

Long story short: Walt said “No” when it came to reusing the “Bambi” characters to promote the U.S. Forest Service’s forest fire prevention program. But given how successful the previous cartoon-based promotional campaign had been … Well, some enterprising employee at the Department of Agriculture reportedly said “Why don’t we come up with a cartoon character of our own?”

So – for the Summer of 1944 – the U.S. Forest Service (with the help of the Ad Council and the National Association of State Foresters) came up with a character to help promote the prevention of forest fires. And his name is Smokey Bear.

Now a lot of thought had gone into Smokey’s creation. Right from the get-go, it was decided that he would be an American black bear (NOT a brown bear or a grizzly). To make this character seem approachable, Smokey was outfitted with a ranger’s hat. He also wore a pair of blue jeans & carried a bucket.

As for his debut poster, Smokey was depicted as pouring water over a still-smoldering campfire. And below this cartoon character was printed Smokey’s initial catchphrase. Which was “Care will prevent 9 out of 10 forest fires!”

Source: NPR

Which makes me think that this slogan was written by the very advertising executive who wrote “Four out of five dentists recommend sugarless gum for their patients who chew gum.”

Anyway … By the Summer of 1947, Smokey got a brand-new slogan. The one that he uses even today. Which is “Only YOU can prevent forest fires.”

The Real Smokey Bear

Now where this gets interesting is – in the Summer of 1950 – there was a terrible forest fire up in the Capitan Mountains of New Mexico. And over the course of this blaze, a bear cub climbed high up into a tree to try & escape those flames.

Firefighters were finally able to rescue that cub. But he was so badly injured in that fire that he was shipped off to the National Zoo in Washington, D.C. and nursed back to health. And since this bear really couldn’t be released back in the wild at this point, he was then put on exhibit.

And what does this bear’s keepers decide to call him? You guessed it: Smokey.

Source: USDA

And due to all the news coverage that this orphaned bear got, he eventually became the living symbol of the U.S. Forest Service’s forest fire prevention program. Which then meant that this particular Smokey Bear got hit with a ton of fan mail. So much so that the National Zoo in Washington D.C. wound up with its own Zip Code.

“Smokey the Bear” Hit Song

And on the heels of a really-for-real Smokey Bear taking up residence in our nation’s capital, Steve Nelson & Jack Rollins decide to write a song that shined a spotlight on this fire-fightin’ bruin. Here’s the opening stanza:

With a ranger’s hat and shovel and a pair of dungarees,
You will find him in the forest always sniffin’ at the breeze,
People stop and pay attention when he tells them to beware
Because everybody knows that he’s the fire-preventin’ bear

Believe or not, even with lyrics like these, “Smokey the Bear” briefly topped the Country charts in the Summer of 1950. Thanks to a version of this song that was recorded by Gene Autry, the Singing Cowboy.

By the way, it was this song that started all of the confusion in regards to Smokey Bear’s now. You see, Nelson & Rollins – because they need the lyrics of their song to scan properly – opted to call this fire-fightin’-bruin Smokey THE Bear. Rather than Smokey Bear. Which has been this cartoon character’s official name since the U.S. Forest Service first introduced him back in 1944.

“The Ballad of Smokey the Bear”

Further complicating this issue was “The Ballad of Smokey the Bear,” which was a stop-motion animated special that debuted on NBC in late November of 1966. Produced by Rankin-Bass as a follow-up to their hugely popular “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer” (which premiered on the Peacock Network in December of 1964) … This hour-long TV show also put a “THE” in the middle of Smokey Bear’s name because the folks at Rankin-Bass thought his name sounded better that way.

And speaking of animation … Disney’s “Bambi” made a brief return to the promotional campaign for the U.S. Forest Service’s forest fire prevention program in the late 1980s. This was because the Company’s home entertainment division had decided to release this full-length animated feature on VHS.

What’s kind of interesting, though, is the language used on the “Bambi” poster is a wee different than the language that’s used on Smokey’s poster. It reads “Protect Our Forest Friends. Only You Can Prevent Wildfires.” NOT “Forest Fires.”

Anyway, that’s how Disney’s “Bambi” led to the creation of Smokey Bear. Thanks for bearin’ with me as I clawed my way through this grizzly tale.

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